WVO so far

[wal1809]

NJD

yes you are right.
on dino i would use the pressure gauge behind the secondary.
the orifice sets your fuel pressure to about 15psi,when the filter gets bad it drops!

i use the same secondary filter for wvo and diesel.i know it slows my purge times,and there will be always some wvo disolved in the filter.i had some problems with pumps (on other engines)and injectors,when switching from cold diesel to 170F WVO.the plunger in the pump would expand faster then the body and causes it to seize!

in order to get these temp diffs a little slower,i run the same secondary on most of my systems.it gives a slight mix of the fuels on switch over,and the temp change takes a little longer.
maybe a detroit wont care,but i also dont know what the head passages would say when they get stone cold diesel after running all day 170F wvo.

with my pressure gauge in front of the filter,i can see how viscous  (hot) my wvo is,and also if the pressure raises i know my filter starts clogging up.

on diesel i have 15psi fuel pressure before the secondary.
on wvo,even at 170F i have 20 psi in idle. (so much to wvo is the same as diesel when hot)(it only looks as liquid as )

if my wvo temp drops to 140 i allready have 28 psi and up.cold wvo will show 40psi etc....

thats just my way how i set it up,from problems i had.if i could get more space on my dash,i would measure even after the filter and .......so many ideas.maybe no time to drive,as i like to be in control!

When it siezed how did you unsieze it.

[NeoplanAN440]

this was on a bosch ve injectorpump!!!

the shaft on these will shear of in this event,and the pump is junk then.

[wal1809]

Did you see the sketch?

[wal1809]

Junkin the pump aint good no matter how you slice on it.  I should not have to worry about it for I am utilizing the second filter for both as you have done.

[JohnEd]

About that sketch:

There are three types of systems.  Feel free to contradict anything I say cause it ain't as set in concrete as  I might sound.  Three!  A single "Season" system has no heating for the WVO and will only run reliebly in the summer.  The tropics is the usual haunt of the single.  The three season can be used in spring, fall and summer in temperate climes.  Then there is the one YOU NEED......the four season deal.  To be a four season system you need to have the fuel tank heated cause while some oils work well down to freezing, such as Europe's mandated Rape seed, using WVO you will have other stuff in there that clouds or gels during even cool periods.

I think you WVO spill line shout dump into the WVO tank like the D system does.  The WVO tank should be heated.  The filter should be heated.  Thye WVO lines to the engine should be heated.  The return line should be, at least, heavily insulated.  You need that multi plate heat exchanger.  Maybe a smaller tank would get you into WVO mode sooner but you have to replace the WVO burned and that can't be done through lines full of gelled WVO no matter how hard you suck.

I don't think you want to feed the mech injectors oil tha is hotter than 180 cause DD went to a lot of trouble to cool them.  Actually, I have always pondered why 180 didn't lunch the little darlins but it must be OK, based on results.

My two cents and I don't think you overpaid,

John, who by his own admission knows very little, but suspects a lot moe.

[wal1809]

Hello John,  I believe we are on the same highway when it comes to running VO with the exception o the return line.  The diesel return line send unused fuel to the tank.  Although not the only reason but part of it is too cool the diesel. 

I intend to have very large tanks on the bus, 100 and a 200 gallon tank.  I can in now way expect to heat this large amount of oil with block water.  I won't need to heat it but for a month or two here or when I go north.  I beloved my best option is a drum heater on the tank right at the pick up.  That would heat it to whatever temp I set the thermostat to.  From there my pex pipe carrying the fuel is inserted into a heater hose for protection and insulation.

I chose the closed loop so to raise filter life by not circulating the tank over and over.

[NeoplanAN440]

hi,
the problem i see in your scetch,is that your t for the wvo closed loop is always under vacuum.(when engine running)
if i understand,your idea is to draw a vacuum there (engine off) till you have wvo without air.then close the valve and hope there is no more air in it!!!
i dont think that you will come away with it!!!!!!
every connection (threats or filters) will draw air over time.
also you will have a high vacuum on your wvo suction line.you will need 1/2" fuel line min and still if your wvo is not above 70F it will be hard to suck on a long distance!!!

to give you an idea.my fuel pump from the main tank to the surge tank,has to pump wvo thats at 70f or above.all my transfer fuel lines are insulated running on the inside of the bus.the pump is building up 45 psi to push it through the lines about 15feet long.

when at 70F it takes about 1 min for 1 gallon
i had the coach standing in the winter with no heaters,so the wvo cooled down inside.
when i started my trip again the wvo in the maintank was at 50F and it took 5min for 1 gallon.
thats amost what i burn while running.so i had to watch that the feed pump kept the surge tank full.

you will maybe come away in the summer months,without a heated fuel line or surge tank,but winter is coming fast.and you need the right inside diameter.
also i would consider a return for wvo and then set a third three port walve from the wvo return to the engine fuel pump inlet,for your closed loop.

as for filter life.the reason for closed loop is heat ,not filter life.
i thing the detroit will never have a problem getting the wvo hot enough.
fuel passages are in the head (almost like  a heat exchanger)
fuel line to the injector run in engine oil (OK its only drip oil)but also the crankcase heat
injectors are cooled by coolant(in our case they heat our injector with the wvo)

that engine alone is like three heatexchangers.

the other argument,the fuel can get to hot,or the injectors get to hot!!!
how??? the system is using coolant,there for it cant get hotter then engine temp.
i dont believe that the 1-3 gallon a minute of fuel spill will make a difference if they are 70f or 170f.

(that my opinion,everybody has its stand on this side.detroit asks to use the fuel to cool,and even has a fuel heat exchanger on the return on some applications)


as for the single tank or unheated systems!!
when we did the single tank conversions in germany,we had approved svo.
it was checked to meet fuel standards.
(that was when the boom began and they started to open bio and svo fuel stations)
we changed injectors to a different spray pattern and pop off pressure.
changed timing
used longer glow plugs that reach deeper into the pre chamber
longer glow cycle.

that was the way to get away with cold start single tank
at winter you had to ad gas to reach the right viscous level!!!!

when the di engines came the problems began!!!!!!!!

also svo is a different animal then some wvo we get!!!

i would always start and pre heat on diesel,and flush (purge) on diesel,for the safety of my injectors and fuel pump.


my wifes 300sd runs two tanks,so if she has trouble,she can get home on diesel.
in the summer,starting on wvo is no problem,but at 50F and lower you see the difference how it starts on wvo to diesel already.and thats with some injectors that are modified and different timing!!!


just more  input on what i learned over the time!

[wal1809]

I have .5 inch ID fuel lines. 

Right now I have no need for a heated tank as it is 80 and 90 degrees.  In the winter I will heat the tank with electric heat.

I might be missing something on the closed loop.  The vaccum part I spoke if was for the first time fire up.  To prime the system.  The ball valve will stay closed when going down the road.  When I stop I can crack the valve open to allow fuel pressure in the return line to force air out the valve.  Help me understand the diffeence of emptying the line into the tank or on the ground, momentarily.  In other words it either goes one way or the other.

If I need a return line to the tank and another 3 way valve that won't be hard to install.  A heated surge tank would not be hard to install either.  My thick head just needs to get a handle on what your telling me.

[NeoplanAN440]

look at your diagramm!!

when your engine is running,there is suction (vacuum) on all lines that are before the engine fuel pump!!
if you have your closed loop,there will be also a vacuum (suction)on the line (return from head) after the orifice.
if you open your bleed valve while running it will suc air in,not push fuel out.


you can only use your  bleed valve when engine is off and all fuel valves in direction for wvo.
then you can apply vacuum to draw air and fuel out .
(not to handy when you have to do it while on the road)
also,if you install a new filter,you know how long it takes sometimes to fill and reprime it.

[NeoplanAN440]

again

when engine is running

if you look at the first t coming from your wvo tank

the line that goes to the wvo tank will have vacuum  (drawing fuel from tank)'
the line from t to heat exchanger will have vacuum (engine gear pump draws fuel trough all filter and lines)
the line that comes from the engine and your ball valve (air trap) yes there will be fuel return,but because the engine burns fuel the vacuum from the suction side of the pump is higher then fuel return.
thats how the principle of the closed loop works.

(the fuel amount the engine uses,is the vacuum it creates to draw in new fuel)


im running out of words!!!!

[NeoplanAN440]

another try.
to empty fuel out of the bled valve while running,
you have to crimp (close-shut off) the connection between the ball valve and the t in your wvo incomming line.
then you have the return flow on your ball valve and can crack it open as if its returning into a tank.'
if you open the connection,you will get the vacuum from the t (suction side to the wvo tank)
and the engine will draw more air,then fuel thaty is coming from the other side.

[wal1809]

Alright we are on the same page.  I know where the cornfusion came into play.  In the original post I wrote the line between the air trap and the Tee would be restricted when the air trap ball valve was open.  I did not draw the restriction in the diagram.  So the trap will catch the air, the in line ball valve will be closed as the air trap ball valve is being opened.  Switching from one direction to the other.  So the engine fuel pump pressure is either sending fuel through a closed loop or out through the trap, depending on ball valve positions.

Glad we found our way through that!!:)

[JohnEd]

AH HA!!!!!!  Wal this s the final straw....so to speak.  You have talked WVO and a couple different methods f Bio  brewing.  That spreads you over the board pretty well.  I was thinking that you have only missed "BLENDING".  For those that don't know there are guys out there that resolve the viscosity lowering and clouding PROBLEMS by  mixing SVO or WVO 50% with GASOLINE.  Got that?  PG....Pump Gas!  They cut that back to 20% in the summer.  Well, we all thought the guys that burned WVO were nuts when we first heard about that, right?  (OOPS! "nuts" may not be sufficiently PC for very few here so let's call them "gray matter CHALLENGED").  Those guys are called "Blenders" and there are more than a few of them.  You can check them out on the Yahoo Group "BLENDERS".  And you should see what they are blending together and how and in what they are running the stuff.  Now here is Neo talking about doing the very same thing back in the Bad Old Days in Der Vatterland.  I just can't be surprised anymore so if anybody out there has a whopper you want to try out ring me up.

I can't  comment on all that Neo says but he makes sense to me.  If the fuel pump is on the engine at the end of the fuel line and you have a good long run of viscous liquid then you will be drawing a vacuum of some sort.  I thought the solution was that "you can push stuff easier that draw it unless, of course, we are talking about a string.  To prime the system, install a pump (intermittant) at the tank pick up.  To overcome some of the viscosity problems,do the same but keep it running.  Everything  seems to "out-gas" and a bubble of anything is a "air bubble".

John

[wal1809]

Hello John.  I am a fan of blending wvo and Dino diesel.  Not a fan if blending gasoline with wvo.  I have friends that have dine it for years, long before the bio scene came into play across the nation.  What I don't like about the gasoline mix is just that, what if it separates while sittng and you send gas to the engine.  Something can go wrong.  With Dino d one need not worry.  The other part is they are not heating the mix.  They are essentially sending cold oil to the engine.  Yes it is thinned to get throught he injectors/pump but what is happening to the cold oil?  They shake their head and reply with "they don't care it is a 20 year old Mercedes they bought for $2000 years ago, who cares if I screws up".  They have a point but just not what I want in a vehicle.

What Neo is talkin about I get.  I got it all along we just were not on the same page.  What I was not gettingwas the need for a surge tank in south Texas.  I got it now being the length of travel from the tank to the pump will create a measure of Hg.  Howeve high the Hg who knows but certainly higher than in the regular Dino d fuel line. 

For now I am going to hook up what I have.  I will probably install a third 3 way valve and a surge tank with the little pump to send the fuel to it.  Once I get this done I can start on the surge project.  I it does not work then I can still run on Dino d until I get the surge part done. 

I no longer have the original ac unit in the right rear compartment.  I can easily put the surge right there.  Everything I need to hook it up is righ there as well.

[happycamperbrat]

I seriously looked into running wvo on my bus........ but sadly here in California I swear there are NO places that you can get it anymore unless you work in the industry. Commercial places are contracting all over and picking up the stuff and there are criminal penalties for just taking it. I studied and found out that the diesel engine was originally built to be run on peanut oil and will easily take most anything for fuel. One guy told me I could run this off "horse piss" lol. I am considering using used motor oil for fuel and running it thru filtered magnets. My only concern with doing this is that there is a type of fluid used in vehicles (off the top of my head it was hydraulic fluid) which could damage the engine. Picking up the used motor oil from backyard mechanics and garages would not be a problem, but it would be a problem that the hungover mechanic not being careful poured the wrong used fluid into one of my collection bins.