Joining the madness - my (almost) new (to me) 4104!

[Geoff]

I had to put a clutch in a 4104 last year.  Luke is the only person I know who still has them.

The story is that my customer lives on top of a hill.  She was going up the hill in first gear to her house when a car cut her off from a side street and she had to stop.  She tried to get going again and completely burned out her clutch to the point all she could do is roll backwards, which she did, and ended up in an empty lot.  The only thing that keep the bus from going into a ditch was a built up embankment that stopped the bus.  Don't ask me about using the brakes, I think she was overwhelmed by the situation.

[Nova Eona]

I had to put a clutch in a 4104 last year.  Luke is the only person I know who still has them.

The story is that my customer lives on top of a hill.  She was going up the hill in first gear to her house when a car cut her off from a side street and she had to stop.  She tried to get going again and completely burned out her clutch to the point all she could do is roll backwards, which she did, and ended up in an empty lot.  The only thing that keep the bus from going into a ditch was a built up embankment that stopped the bus.  Don't ask me about using the brakes, I think she was overwhelmed by the situation.

Yikes.  I'll admit, I don't think I'd be looking at a 4104 if its home was going to be on top of a hill where that could happen with any regularity.

[richard5933]

A little worrisome, but not devastatingly so.  From the sounds of this thread: https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=18977.0 it is *possible* to get it moving again on an uphill situation with some modifications, skill, and a touch of mechanical recklessness.  ...

I just check the location that was a problem for me last year in Sioux Falls on Google Earth. It's about a 15% grade at the offending stop sign. There is no amount of feathering or skill that's going to keep from doing damage on a grade like that once you come to a stop. Calling for assistance is the only wise option. I should have known better than to even try that. Lesson learned.

My other major issue with the 4-speed is turning into my driveway. There is a county road in front of my house - no shoulders and only 1 lane in each direction. My driveway can be entered from only one direction, and it is located about 50 yards from the peak of a rather steep grade. The grade is about 12% for the most part, and then just before my driveway it flattens out a bit to only about 8%. If I need to stop in front of my driveway for traffic I can get started, but it's a real bugger.

What I do now is approach from the side street at the bottom of the hill. I make the turn onto the country highway in first gear and stay in first as I creep up the steepest part of the hill and approach my driveway with the hazards blinking. It's only about 300 yards from the side road to my driveway. As I approach my driveway, I make a quick calculation regarding my ability to make the turn safely. If I can, then I continue through the turn into my driveway without stopping after giving a warning blow on the air horn. If I have any doubts, I'm already in first gear and already in motion. This allows me to just do a 'touch-and-go' and continue over the crest of the hill. At that point I go around the block and try again. If I have a co-pilot with me I can drop him/her off to act as a set of eyes on top of the hill to help me better decide on the safety of turning into the driveway.

Proper planning is key. Once you identify problem locations develop a plan and find a way to work through it. A 4-speed shouldn't keep you from enjoying the 4104, as long as you're willing and able to work within the limitations presented by it.

[Nova Eona]

Fair enough, and I definitely didn't mean to imply any lack of skill on your part Richard - I put modifications first for a reason, it sounds like there may be some potential in that fast-idle tweak, but that does no good if you haven't done it before you're on the hill - or even then, I think you're right that 15% is probably beyond the scope of that particular workaround.

I live in New England and will likely do most of my back-country travels around here - as hilly as it is, most of our roads squirm around them rather than over thankfully.

Oh, here's a good thing to ask - I know insurance can be a bear on any converted bus, anyone have any recommendations and/or want to share what they're paying?

[richard5933]

Fair enough, and I definitely didn't mean to imply any lack of skill on your part Richard - I put modifications first for a reason, it sounds like there may be some potential in that fast-idle tweak, but that does no good if you haven't done it before you're on the hill - or even then, I think you're right that 15% is probably beyond the scope of that particular workaround...

No offense taken at all. Just presented the extra facts so you would know what I was dealing with. The fast idle thing wouldn't work on my bus anyway, as the fast idle is disabled if my parking brake is not set.

Oh, here's a good thing to ask - I know insurance can be a bear on any converted bus, anyone have any recommendations and/or want to share what they're paying?

First - work with an independent insurance agent and not with the company directly. Independent agents know how to work the system and get things through underwriting. You or I call directly for the same vehicle, and we're likely to get a blanket "no" from some low-level call center operator and never get near underwriting. The agent knows how to submit things to get through the initial layers more easily.

Second, and most important...

Assuming that your bus is registered/licensed as a motor home you are looking for insurance on a class A motor home. Not a bus, not a bus conversion, not anything other than a class A motor home. If you are working with a good independent agent you can have a more complete conversation, but be careful of giving too much information.

I was asked for photos to present to underwriting, largely because we were getting stated value coverage. We also submitted a private appraisal which supported our insurance request. I think that the underwriters would have asked for the photos either way though, just to be sure that they were not insuring some DIY conversion which was going to be inherently unsafe or present a huge liability risk.

Others will surely have more thoughts on this topic. You can also find lots of good information by doing a search on the forum - there are numerous threads about it.

If you were in Wisconsin I'd be able to give you the name of a great agent that will likely get things done. Not sure where you are in New England, but there are lots of good bus people in that part of the country who could help, I'm sure.

[dtcerrato]

Living vicariously in the bus nut world at least for us includes bringing the towed vehicle into the equation of getting the bus to move, stopped, or relocated either with the assistance of the toad or sometimes (with a dead engine) totally with only the power of the toad while hitched. Thus the reason we prefer to tow four down...
We too recently performed a total clutch rebuild and we're lucky to be able to purchase some parts from the late Jefferson Truck & Coach. Lots of the parts were still serviceable through machining &/or local (Tampa)clutch shop. In general the consensus weather it be private owner's, commercial owners, charter companies, mechanics, etc. - the 4104 was (& still is in our book) one of the simplest & toughest busses built with a bullet proof transmission when operated & maintained properly. We don't advocate living dangerously by using some of our methods as we eased into our experience with our over the decades of trials & tribulations with our specific bus. We can & do attest that there is absolutely no regularity of break downs of any of the systems in the 4104. Yes we're bias to a bus that is truly our home away from home and have been full timing in since May 11 w/o issue in some of the most extreme places this continent has to offer. To date since start of this road trip we have only added 1 gallon of engine oil with the engine & rear of coach relatively dry!

[TomC]

I drove 13spd manual in my truck for 21 years and 1.3 million miles-so I have nothing to prove. My bus has a V730 Allison 3 spd. I also have turbocharged my 8V-71 with air to air intercooling. I'll never give up the automatic. So much so, that on my truck conversion, I replaced the 13 spd with an Allison HT740 (quite possibly the most reliable truck/bus transmission ever made). Good Luck, TomC

[dtcerrato]

We like the exercise as gearheads but do enjoy the auto in the toad.

[Runcutter]

Nova, many of us include our location as part of our signature (see mine as an example.)  That way, we can know who's local to you and may be available to help.

You mention that you're in New England.  Unless you're in Connecticut or the northern reaches, considering getting to know Spike and Jim Michaud in southern New Hampshire (east of Manchester, west of Portsmouth, north of Haverhill.  https://busesonline.com/about/

Spike was in charge of Maintenance for the family bus company, back when the coach fleet was all GMC (including 4106's, 4903/5's, and a Scenicruiser - and I suspect he drove 4104's as a teenager).  If he's available, he'd be a great teacher -- particularly on shifting.  Don't let the non-synchro Spicer be a concern.  Decades ago, when I was an instructor for another local company -- a Michaud competitor, I only ran into one person who couldn't learn to drive -- and my successor taught him (but only by threatening to beat him up if he didn't learn).

Arthur

[dtcerrato]

Arthur thanks for the bus link which is always good to have on file.

[chessie4905]

From a former 4104 owner. Shift the trans faster when cold for a couple of miles, then slow your shifting speed after it warms up. Some have mentioned using 50 weight synthetic lube in the trans as it doesnt change viscosity at different trans temps.

[dtcerrato]

Ditto on what Chessie said, we have been running 50 wt full synthetic for many years now. Initially it costs $$$ but for the difference in shifting and the prolonged change interval (500,000 mile) it has paid off time & again. We're running a product called Shell Dentex which hasn't been available for quite some time. The same stuff has been in our tranny since the 80s & still is the color & smell as the day we refilled it. Made shifting much easier. The author back in the day recommending that product was the late "Dean's Coach" who had the largest grave yard of mostly GM coaches I have ever seen in the Raleigh/Durham area of the Carolinas at the time.

[Nova Eona]

Well gang, I am now the proud owner of PD4104-4231!  Pic below, once I've picked it up and brought it home I'll put up a proper gallery of pics and stats, probably start a thread in the right section of the forum for that.  Wish me luck!

[richard5933]

Congratulations! I'm excited for you.

[DoubleEagle]

Yes, congratulations, you made the leap. What part of New Hampshire? I used to live in Littleton, a few decades ago. Does New Hampshire still require vehicle inspections every six months?