Joining the madness - my (almost) new (to me) 4104!

[Nova Eona]

Hello everyone!  Just joined the forum as I'm on the very edge of pulling the trigger on an old GMC 4104 RV conversion.  I've gone up to see it twice and am in the final steps of negotiating the price, but while I'm here, may as well see if anyone's got any insight!

First, some personal background - I'm 32 with an IT/Telecom background and lots of amateur experience working on cars, light trucks, electrical, plumbing, carpentry, etc - I like to tinker.  I'm coming off an an '83 Winnebago with a 6.2 diesel, so I'm somewhat familiar with big, old, slow, diesels, just not ones this big, old, or slow!  I also have an uncle who used to work on detroit diesels, so that's a huge plus I know.

Now, the bus itself - it was converted to an RV back in the early nineties, and if the hub counter was reset then then it's got about 14k RV miles on it.  The current owner was a professional trucker and still takes it out once or twice a year locally, but wants to see it go to a good home.  Body seems to be in great shape - needs fresh paint on the painted bits and a shine on the aluminum, but everything seems super solid.  From what I could see, the air bags and suspension components all looked healthy.  It does need new tires, which I know are not cheap, but hey, at least it's only got two axles.  Some of the window seals, including the windshield one, are due for replacement as well.
Conversion work was done well - definitely some updates needed, but the cabinetry is all very well made oak which was made and put in by the current owner's father; a lot of love clearly went into this bus.

Had the seller take us for a test drive yesterday - it actually ran out of fuel while idling after startup, and he refilled the tank and primed it back up while we were there, only took him 10-15 minutes total.  I actually consider this a perk, as I'm wary of sellers prepping for 'perfect' showings.  Not much smoke once it was running.  Ride was very smooth, speedometer wasn't behaving but at one point we were keeping up with traffic on a stretch of highway where traffic is usually going 65-70mph, so I was impressed.

One thing of some concern was that the previous owner installed padded panels in the roof for insulation - I'm tall, so I can only stand fully upright in the middle 2'-3' in the center of the bus, otherwise I need to duck my head slightly or risk bumping into the padding (it is soft at least).  I'm thinking that I could either a) adapt to it, or b) at some point take down the panels and re-engineer it with a more modern insulator to recover some headroom (looks like aerogel-based insulation is finally filtering out into affordable ranges).

Any thoughts, encouragements, or warnings are welcome!  If I take the dive, I'll put up a bunch of photos (and then probably spend the next few months asking for more advice).

-Rob

[TomC]

4104 is a good old reliable bus. And since you know mechanics-will help. The 6-71 is very reliable with basic maintenance. Weak spot is the 4spd manual, but if you know that startability is not good, just don't get into a situation that you can't get out of.
As to headroom-I wanted a 4104/4106 myself, but being 6'3" in shoes, I didn't want to be banging my head. And the fact that the 04/06 is a 96" wide, I wanted something bigger. I have an AMGeneral 10240B transit I converted. It is 102" wide, with 6'10" headroom. There is a big difference in the interior space. Before you buy this 04, please look at a MCI 102C3 or equal to see the difference. You can't easily raise the roof on a GMC since it is unibody construction. But-if you're willing to live with the dimensions of the 04, it will be a good bus. Good Luck, TomC

[siberyd]

We have a 4104, I am 6-4 and have to watch my head in ours sometimes.  But being a professional school bus driver, I am used to ducking in the older buses I drive.

For me the interior height of the bus wasn't a make or break it item. I like the classic look and length.

I am also the guy tracking down all the surviving GM intercity left in the world. Whether you buy the coach or not, would you care to share the coaches serial number with the GM survivors list?

[buswarrior]

Headroom in the camper all depends on how much time you spend inside the camper standing up...

There is likely little to no headroom to recover, the pleated covering is likely nearby to the structure anyway.

Don't shine the aluminium bits until you know what anodised aluminium panels are, and the repercussions...

4104 are a lovely machine, nice camper size, classic looks, and with basic maintenance, pretty much brings you home every time.

Welcome to the madness!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[Geoff]

In this day and age, I can't see someone spending the time and money to convert a 4104.  A cool bus to look at, but there are so many newer buses for sale that have bigger engines, automatic transmissions, power steering and so on, that spending money on a 4104 is a failure.  You can spend the same money on a newer bus as you would converting a 4104.

BTW, on the buses for sale there is a fully converted MCI-9 for $15,000. 

[richard5933]

In this day and age, I can't see someone spending the time and money to convert a 4104.  A cool bus to look at, but there are so many newer buses for sale that have bigger engines, automatic transmissions, power steering and so on, that spending money on a 4104 is a failure.  You can spend the same money on a newer bus as you would converting a 4104.

BTW, on the buses for sale there is a fully converted MCI-9 for $15,000.

Sometimes it's not about easy or cheaper or more features. Sometimes it's about the joy of getting a vintage beast up and running, and then making it into your own. Some people just prefer old vehicles to new. I do, and while I agree that we could have spent less for "more" with a newer bus, there's no way I'd enjoy it nearly as much.

It's the whole journey vs. the destination thing...

[Nova Eona]

We have a 4104, I am 6-4 and have to watch my head in ours sometimes.  But being a professional school bus driver, I am used to ducking in the older buses I drive.

For me the interior height of the bus wasn't a make or break it item. I like the classic look and length.

I am also the guy tracking down all the surviving GM intercity left in the world. Whether you buy the coach or not, would you care to share the coaches serial number with the GM survivors list?

Sure thing - pretty certain I'm buying, but either way I'll update you with the serial.  I'm thinking similarly on the headroom - I really don't spend much time standing around in my current RV, and I found myself automatically ducking in the right places (aside from occasionally bumping an AC) just while looking it over.

Headroom in the camper all depends on how much time you spend inside the camper standing up...

There is likely little to no headroom to recover, the pleated covering is likely nearby to the structure anyway.

Don't shine the aluminium bits until you know what anodised aluminium panels are, and the repercussions...

4104 are a lovely machine, nice camper size, classic looks, and with basic maintenance, pretty much brings you home every time.

Welcome to the madness!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Yeah, I did a little research on how to treat the aluminum right - that will most likely end up being a Spring project, so I'll have plenty of time to read up and prepare.

In this day and age, I can't see someone spending the time and money to convert a 4104.  A cool bus to look at, but there are so many newer buses for sale that have bigger engines, automatic transmissions, power steering and so on, that spending money on a 4104 is a failure.  You can spend the same money on a newer bus as you would converting a 4104.

BTW, on the buses for sale there is a fully converted MCI-9 for $15,000.

Thankfully this one is already converted, and quite nicely at that.  Personally I'm not worried about learning to shift it or taking it slow, I appreciate the simplicity of maintenance and the improved mileage - this will be a once-in-a-while toy and home hobby honestly, not a full-time living situation type of deal.  I love the style of it, and very much appreciate the 35' length (40' would be problematic for some of my frequent locations).  Best of all though, it's an hour from my house instead of across the country.


Thank you all for the advice and encouragement, I'll let you know when the deal is struck!

[DoubleEagle]

I have fond memories of the 4104, it carried me to the Army induction office in 1965, and then a Silver Eagle Model 01 took me to Fort Dix. You say you are not worried about shifting the Spicer 4 speed, but have you actually driven this or any other Spicer? As Tom said, it has its limitations because of the relatively high gear ratios. There are grades that will challenge it, and you might find them going to campgrounds where 35 footers are allowed. Double clutching will be required, and it is an acquired art form mastering it. Is your left leg in good shape, if not, it will be. The 6-71 is a sweet sounding engine, but you will be one of the slower buses on the road. If you like the looks, you remember to duck, and you are patient, then go for it.

[Nova Eona]

I have fond memories of the 4104, it carried me to the Army induction office in 1965, and then a Silver Eagle Model 01 took me to Fort Dix. You say you are not worried about shifting the Spicer 4 speed, but have you actually driven this or any other Spicer? As Tom said, it has its limitations because of the relatively high gear ratios. There are grades that will challenge it, and you might find them going to campgrounds where 35 footers are allowed. Double clutching will be required, and it is an acquired art form mastering it. Is your left leg in good shape, if not, it will be. The 6-71 is a sweet sounding engine, but you will be one of the slower buses on the road. If you like the looks, you remember to duck, and you are patient, then go for it.

I watched the previous owner driving it like a pro, but did not try myself.  I fully expect there to be a learning curve, but I've typically got a good hand with that sort of thing and am patient.  Left leg's strong, but it's got an air clutch upgrade anyway.  I know first is pretty steep on these, and that starting on hills can be problematic - are we talking 'takes a  minute and some swearing to get going' problematic, or 'back down the hill and try again' problematic?

[dtcerrato]

We have owned our 4104 for 40 years now. Purchased it in service & performed the original conversion on it and a couple interior remodels since then not to mention major unit repairs on nearly every system in the bus. Unless a system has become completely unobtanium for parts we've tried to keep it as original as possible. Nothing can be farther from the truth of any bus no matter how old or worn out it may be to be a failure to convert. True bus nutting is a labor of love & not a labor to recoup what is spent... Follow your dream. The 4104 is a turtle to today's interstate system but will do the trip and get you there. We are winding down our 2nd road trip to AK from FL & the ole' girl is completely stock and purrs down the road & up every mountain N America has to offer. BTDT with a track record of 100s of thousands of miles on the same ole' work horse your contemplating on purchasing.

[richard5933]

...I know first is pretty steep on these, and that starting on hills can be problematic - are we talking 'takes a  minute and some swearing to get going' problematic, or 'back down the hill and try again' problematic?

Depends on the hill. When we were coming out of the Sioux Falls downtown area last year to see the falls we ended up on a road with our 4108 which was very steep. Much steeper than we had any business being on at such slow speeds in city traffic. As we approached the stop sign at the "T" intersection at the top of the last hill we knew we had a problem since the oncoming traffic required us to come to a complete stop. No way possible to get going again. Police were called, and I backed down about 3/4 mile of narrow road with the squad car behind us and lights flashing. I haven't made that mistake again, and our bus has an 8V71 mated to the Spicer 4-speed.

All that said, it hasn't limited our travels and just requires a bit more pre-planning. To us it's part of the journey and not a big deal. The worst part of it is actually the limitations with reverse on ours - our Spicer doesn't like to back up on a hill at all, and that's where getting into or out of a campground might be a problem for us.

Like has been said before, these buses have crossed every corner of the country for decades, so there's no reason a bus nut can't keep doing it with a bit of careful planning if the bus you want happens to have a 4-speed.

[buswarrior]

Many seek car-like performance from their coach.

Some do not.

Just one of those choices...

The driver's of the 4104 when it showed up in the fleets in the 50's thought they were rocket ships...

Perspective, expectations and experience.

Do what YOU want to do.

Following the crowd on the internet has stifled a lot of creativity.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[DoubleEagle]

starting on hills can be problematic - are we talking 'takes a  minute and some swearing to get going' problematic, or 'back down the hill and try again' problematic?

Richard's experience is a fine example of what can happen with the 4 speed. I had a similar experience in South Dakota with my first Eagle when I was towing a Land Rover up the entrance grade to the Crazy Horse Monument. I started the hill in third gear, and as it got steeper, I got down to first. It was okay for awhile, but I kept losing speed as I approached the top. If anybody ahead of me stopped I would have been forced to stop, unhook, and back down. But, no one did, and I lugged it in first into the parking lot. I wished at that point I had the five speed version, which would have done better. The other hazard is trying to restart in traffic on a steep grade and doing serious damage to the clutch and flywheel. Most buses went from terminal to terminal without encountering serious grades, but we tend to go to places that buses didn't normally go.

The 4104 you are considering will probably be a fine vehicle, but you will have to plan where you go carefully to avoid trouble, particularly because you do not have experience with it yet. I would have the present owner give you training guidance in shifting since he is comfortable with it and knows it best. There is something satisfying about shifting a manual transmission that an automatic can not give you. You feel a connection to the whole drivetrain through your arm that lets you know there are a lot of parts back there pulling for you. Once the grinding days are over, and you can upshift and downshift with ease, you will feel very satisfied. Not everyone can do it well. 

[Nova Eona]

A little worrisome, but not devastatingly so.  From the sounds of this thread: https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=18977.0 it is *possible* to get it moving again on an uphill situation with some modifications, skill, and a touch of mechanical recklessness.  Obviously avoidance is the best bet, but I can think of situations where I'd rather risk clutch damage over trying to back down certain slopes.  To be clear though, are talking about the white-knuckle "wouldn't want to even walk down that in the winter" type of slopes, or are gentler hills and inclines equally hazardous?  Anyone have a guess on the highest safe grade percentage you'd want to stop on?

I am a manual fan in many ways - automatics are nice for everyday driving, but my summer 'fun' car is a manual '90 BMW convertible which I'm in the middle of dropping a newer engine into.  Reason I didn't mention it earlier is that I'm aware that shifting that type of transmission hardly counts as experience when it comes to the Spicer.  Slow doesn't scare me - my old Winnebago regularly takes steep hills at a leisurely 25mph if I don't carry enough momentum into it, I'm used to enjoying the scenery.

[DoubleEagle]

As far as a safe percentage grade goes, it depends on how heavy you are, which engine, tire size, etc. The grades you encounter on interstates are more modest (usually less than 7%), it's the ones on state, county, and private roads that can get too steep to restart without clutch wear and/or stalling of the engine. Some local roads in some states have signs warning of steep grades, but not everywhere. If you can't safely back down, the next option is being towed. There are trucker guides in print and online that cover the subject, but I don't remember anything specifically, (I have automatics now).