Electric Buses in California

Jim Eh. · December 17, 2018, 06:33:41 AM

Strangely enough, the school divisions around here are switching back to gasoline powered buses rather than diesel. Probably due to all the problems with the new(er) diesel engine emission problems that they suffered with over the last 7-8 years.

Because of their relatively short run time (around here anyway) present electric powered vehicle technology would probably be well suited for school buses from an eco benefit point of view but for the same reason, may not be justified for the cost.

CrabbyMilton · December 17, 2018, 07:03:38 AM

The electric versions will likely be great for short trips around town but perhaps not so much for longer distance and/or much expressway travel. For instance a field trip several miles out or a weekend charter.
Yes gasoline engines are coming back in skoolies for reasons you give.
THOMAS does not at this time but perhaps they are working on it. IC and BLUEBIRD has offered them for awhile now.
BLUEBIRD uses the FORD V10 and IC a PSI 8.8L V8.

Jim Blackwood · December 17, 2018, 08:22:55 AM

After WW-II Japan instituted a taxation program that increases the taxes for vehicles annually. Crazy? No, they did it to force new development. I'm not saying it is a good plan, it does mean that anyone who owns a vehicle is pretty well forced to buy a new one about every five years. Maybe with the increased durability of new vehicles they have modified the timeline, I don't know. Essentially after a few years it becomes too expensive to keep the old car. Seems backwards and upside down, most definitely a government taking and I don't see any way Americans would stand for it, but maybe it's something they could make use of in California... He, he, he.

Jim

Jeremy · December 17, 2018, 08:51:48 AM

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on December 17, 2018, 08:22:55 AM
After WW-II Japan instituted a taxation program that increases the taxes for vehicles annually. Crazy? No, they did it to force new development. I'm not saying it is a good plan, it does mean that anyone who owns a vehicle is pretty well forced to buy a new one about every five years. Maybe with the increased durability of new vehicles they have modified the timeline, I don't know. Essentially after a few years it becomes too expensive to keep the old car. Seems backwards and upside down, most definitely a government taking and I don't see any way Americans would stand for it, but maybe it's something they could make use of in California... He, he, he.

Jim

Backwards and upside-down is correct, and I'm sure it's far more to do with economic stimulation (employment and taxes from new car production) as it is to do with encouraging technological advancement. And I shout at the TV whenever some environmental campaigner talks about how new cars are so much better for the planet than old ones, whilst being deliberately blind to how hugely bad (energy and resource-consuming) new car manufacture is for that self-same planet, not to mention the criminal wastefulness of unnecessarily scrapping existing cars.

We don't have taxes that rise as cars get older here, but we do have ever-more stringent annual roadworthiness tests ('MOT tests') that force many perfectly sound cars off the road. There was a big jump in the stringency of the MOT test again this year, but they did at least sugar the pill by simultaneously introducing a new scheme that exempts vehicles over 40 years old from both the MOT and road tax

Jeremy

neoneddy · December 17, 2018, 08:55:21 AM

Electric does not necessarily mean primarily battery based. Could be hydrogen power cells, maybe some sort of embedded road induction, or a combination of those technologies plus battery, maybe even higher efficiency solar on the bus roofs (in combination with everything else).

We can all poke holes in this and say why it won't work. Necessity (or great reward) has always been the mother of invention, 10 years is a long time these days.

In 10 years we went from barely able to launch a basketball into orbit to walking on the moon. If it's a problem we really want to solve, i think we can.

Jeremy · December 17, 2018, 09:16:30 AM

Regarding the hydrogen option - I was reading the other day that there is now so much PV solar capacity here (due to hugely expensive but indisputably successful Government schemes to subsidise private solar installation) that they are now frequently 'storing' the excess electricity produced by using it to generate hydrogen. I was amazed by that because electrical hydrogen production (ie. electrolysis) is incredibly inefficient - but that is apparently what they are doing, and presumably lots of new hydrogen production will make it a much more attractive option for vehicles.

Not that carrying around large and very heavy (crash-capable) tanks containing very flammable hydrogen under very high pressure strikes me as being any more attractive than carrying-around large, very heavy and very flammable li-on batteries mind you..

Jeremy

neoneddy · December 17, 2018, 11:24:22 AM

re; Hydrogen Safety - When you think about it, riding around in 2-part napalm cages (Gas tank + Foam and upholstery) doesn't sound super safe. We also have propane powered vehicles already, I'd think the production problem is far larger than storage.

With that said as a young man i recall one of those science programs on TLC or Discovery Channel, back when they were not Reality TV channels, it was showing the possibility of dissolving hydrogen in a solid powder. This tank containing the dissolved gas was shot by a bullet and nothing happened,not even explosive decompression. I can't for the life of me find anything on it anymore, I could have dreamt it or something too.

Jim Blackwood · December 17, 2018, 12:37:22 PM

That is a distinct possibility, hydrogen will bond with many things, some much more loosely than others so that your ideal powder would only require a moderate change in pressure. Consider acetylene for instance. It is universally dissolved in acetone for storage, resulting in much greater density and moderate pressures.

But acetylene and other common fuel gasses are composed of a much larger molecule than hydrogen, which is the smallest molecule that exists. Even paired it is extremely small. So small it can migrate through the empty spaces between the molecules of most other materials. Can you ever truly say a gas like that is safe?

Jim

Geoff · December 17, 2018, 12:46:01 PM

I'm telling ya, Trump wants to dump CARB, and he has been keeping his promises. I don't think it is going to take an act of Congress, just an Executive Order. CARB is out of control.

richard5933 · December 17, 2018, 12:58:14 PM

Quote from: Geoff on December 17, 2018, 12:46:01 PM
I'm telling ya, Trump wants to dump CARB, and he has been keeping his promises. I don't think it is going to take an act of Congress, just an Executive Order. CARB is out of control.

You may be right, but for all our sake I pray he doesn't dump the standards altogether. Anyone that's old enough to remember the rivers catching fire and the smog so bad people were getting sick would understand the need for some type of controls. Industry has shown it is unable/unwilling to take control on their own. A balance is needed, not a free-for-all.

I'll stop now before this starts to sound even more soapbox like than it already does.

Geoff · December 17, 2018, 03:46:30 PM

Definitely "take it to the extreme" ponderings. Read my first post on this thread.

Dave5Cs · December 17, 2018, 06:42:15 PM

Where you said He wants, not, that he is? LOL and We would have to actually find an Executive in the WH first, LOL, Not LOL

Why do all you guys from other states care about CARB so much if you don't even live in California?
It's funny that you keep giving the same answer. Well it will come here next, because California makes all these stupid laws and it always moves across the country to our states?

Don't you vote in your own states. Because if you get those laws you don't like, then you must be a Nancy, snowflake, lefties, or whatever you call them, state too, LOL

Bus Lurker · December 17, 2018, 08:20:31 PM

The reason for starting this thread was to point to the trend here in California with regard how our two stroke buses/conversions may be viewed in the future by CARB. Even though it my opinion that the bus conversions I read about on this forum are amazing machines and I really do want one, my concern is what CARB may have up its sleeve.

I enjoyed reading about Windtrader when he went to considerable effort to find and bring in a nice MCI from out of state. Since then it is very likely Don planned and improved the coach to make it to his own preferences and desires.

Let me tell you how CARB handled the truck/tractors owned by many of my owner operator friends. When CARB made its decision of which trucks they no longer wanted on California roads, CARB made its decision even though trucking organizations and large fleet owners protested. My owner operator friends who owned the offending trucks had to sell their trucks out of state at low than typical prices, put on expensive exhaust filters, and some scrapped their trucks. These trucks were not black smoke belching infernos; they were decent trucks.

It would be disturbing to read on this forum that someone like Windtrader and other California bus conversion owners would be required to sell their coaches. That would be a tragedy, but I doubt CARB cares even a bit!

I don't have a coach, but I may be interested. Would registering the coach outside of California be a solution to keep the coach off the radar from CARB? Montana? Just thinking....

windtrader · December 18, 2018, 12:57:21 AM

QuoteThe reason for starting this thread was to point to the trend here in California with regard how our two stroke buses/conversions may be viewed in the future by CARB.

The time for CARB to snag our old 2 stroke non-commercial bus conversions has long passed. For whatever reason back then CARB specifically excluded bus conversions. My feeling is they snared 99% of the target trucks/buses and added the exclusion for bus-RV conversions just to cover all cases.

It is inconceivable that CARB will bother with old bus conversions as we are off the radar since the targeting of commercial 2 stroke trucks/buses is complete. It is far more likely over the coming years, qualified service pros for these old two strokes will become virtually extinct; not a stretch as it is already a tough situation.

The older buses were regulated out just the same as the trucks your friends were driving.

If you do purchase a bus, think twice before providing alternative reality when securing vehicle insurance. Titling/registering in another state than where you live and keep the bus just gives the insurance company a valid reason to reject any claims you might submit.
Don

Dave5Cs · December 18, 2018, 08:42:18 AM

What windy said and unless you are active military I would not even consider registering out of state. You come back and are still living in Cali then get caught with out of state plates which right now is a big thing, they will get you for trying to get around your home state law which states 30day to change registration after moving here. If you live here and do it IRS and/or state tax department gets involved and that's not pretty.