First Bus - seeking purchase advice

[RJ]

I've learned from racing cars how to double-clutch, heel-and-toe and do rev-match no-clutch shifting. So I don't think learning the trans will be an issue.

Jim -

I have to chuckle when I read a newbie's comments that shifting an air-throttled, wet-clutch, 4-spd manual 4905 won't be an issue.  I've seen this combination bring extremely experienced bus drivers to their knees in frustration, and "hot-shot" truckers simply pull over and get out, refusing to attempt to drive one anymore.  Double-clutching won't be an issue, once you figure out the rhythm, heel and toe will roll your ankle worse than NBA player's and is somewhat dangerous on the street with a 15-ton vehicle at speed.  As for rev-matching no-clutch shifting. . . well, the air throttle will definitely challenge you attempting this - especially downshifting on a hill.  OTOH, once you figure out and master the idiosyncrasies, they're a ball to drive!

P8M4905A-1181 was delivered new in September of 1975 as fleet number 237 to Las Vegas-Tonopah-Reno Stage Lines, HQ'd in Las Vegas, NV.  LTR was an excellent carrier that took very good care of their equipment until the original owners retired and sold it off.  At that point, the new owners literally ran the company into the ground, sadly.  However, the remaining positive is that these are SW US vehicles, not NE Rust Belt units, so corrosion will be at a minimum.

4905s with the manual transmission came with a 4.375:1 rear axle ratio, thus lower-geared than their 35' little brothers.  The lower gearing helps get the heavier coach rolling from a start, the downside is that you'll run about 100 rpm more at the same road speed.  Sure, this will affect your fuel mileage, which, in reality, is a moot point in a vehicle that has the aerodynamics of a rounded brick.

This model year will have the Sheppard integral power steering - no upgrade needed!

Highly recommend using a Trailer Toad to pull your race car trailer.  You're absolutely right that it's easy to balance the car on the trailer - it's the "up and down" pounding on the hitch that's the problem.  The TT eliminates that completely.  But you will need a receiver-style hitch on the rear of the coach.  For the $3700 they want for the HD model, I consider that cheap insurance vs the cost of repairing a damaged chassis. www.trailertoad.com

Don't know how many conversions you've looked at, but don't jump at the first one you see.  Remember the adage: "It's easy to buy a bus - it's much, much more difficult to sell a mistake!"

FWIW & HTH. . .

[eagle19952]

"Rebuilt" or "refreshed" engine and state of the transmission. Unless you have detailed invoices including what was done and who did the rebuild, walk away. Same with tranny.

good luck finding that bus for $6000.00 

[luvrbus]

It must be the V drive and the clutch set up on a GM that requires a knack to shift,Eagle and MCI both used a non sync 4 speeds they didn't require any special skill to shift all I ever used was the clutch for was to get one rolling.
I guess being old school driving the old 4 speed crash boxes in trucks with the Brown Lipe 3 or 4 speed auxiliary helped me  

[majormojo]

I have to chuckle when I read a newbie's comments that shifting an air-throttled, wet-clutch, 4-spd manual 4905 won't be an issue. 

Didn't mean to imply that I already know everything or that I expect to heel-and-toe or no-clutch shift the bus. Just that I've learned several shifting techniques in the past and I'm confident I can learn something new again. Message received: I've been warned!

Thank you very much for the detailed info and background on this bus. That is nice to know. I appreciate your advice.

Cheers,

[DoubleEagle]

The comments about the non-synchro 4 speed shifting are quite accurate. If you enjoy a challenge, then go for it, but your left leg and the right side of the brain (which coordinates the left side of the body, and is the creative half) will be overworked and tested. Back when a lot of buses had 4-speed Spicer's, there were not as many long traffic jams that required starting up and going through the gears so much. My first Eagle has it, and I have taken it where buses should not go from Maine to Texas to South Dakota. However, there were times when my left leg got the shakes from all the action, and my Eagle has an air-assisted clutch. My second Eagle has the Allison 740, and retirement is much better.

[kyle4501]

Documentation on prior engine work means almost nothing to me. Too easy to fake documents. Also easy enough to damage one in a few miles if you overheat it, run it low on oil, etc. 

I'm more interested in how it behaves during a cold start, after it warms up, & under load at speed.

As an example, I bought a Scenicruiser that had been parked for over 5 years. No paperwork at all. Tag on engine was a greyhound rebuild tag from 1971 - old style block with the big oval air box covers. It had 1/2 tank of old fuel in it.
We hooked up an old group 31 battery to see if the electrical system worked. Bumped the starter & it started right up. Ran great on the 700+ mile trip home. Still runs GREAT.

So, don't let paperwork get in the way of finding a good coach.

PS,
If the clutch & shifter linkages are properly adjusted (& not worn out), shifting won't be that bad & was easy to pick up - as long as I reminded myself that I was 30 ft away from the transmission.

[majormojo]

Lots of great info, good to see many opinions on the bus. I'm going to arrange for a professional inspection next. I have a friend who is actually a HD (bus) mechanic, though he's across the country right now, he's suggested some reputable shops.

I assume that a thorough PPI will include things like the engine, suspension and braking/air systems. With a car, I'd pull a couple wheels and inspect brake lines, pads/shoes, rotors/drums, suspension bushings, etc. Is something similar normal for a bus inspection? Is there anything specific I should ask for or ensure to have inspected? I would think that something like a pressure or leak test of the air systems would be part of a "normal" inspection. I'll be sure to clarify what will be done, but I want to be aware of anything that might be out of the ordinary due to the age or rarity of this bus.

When I viewed the bus, it started quite easily and ran (idled) smoothly. What do I look/listen for when I drive it at speed and under load?

[buswarrior]

Go for a drive, city and highway.

On highway, check for torque steer. At some cruising speed below the governor, apply full throttle to accelerate, then lift throttle to decel. On/off a couple times.

Did the coach change direction in either state?  Worn/loose suspension down the back will move according to the load on the back axle, and "steer" the coach.

And fool peeps that there's something wrong up front.

And check all that other stuff...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[lostagain]

A thorough DOT pre trip inspection will reveal problems if any. Look on the Ontario ministry of transport site for pre trip inspection for transport trucks and commercial buses. The British Columbia ICBC site has  thttp://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Documents/drive_commercial_veh_full.pdf. This is one of the best pre trips I have seen.

JC

[Zephod]

Have you checked the brake lines, the brake drums and shoes? Does the aur leak etc? Is there more than half an inch play in the belts? Any illegal welds?


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[wildbob24]

No belts on a GM

Bob

[luvrbus]

No belts on a GM

Bob

Is that good or bad , how you doing Bob long time since we heard from you.Do you by change have a muffler collector for a 4106 you would like to sell

[majormojo]

I've got an appointment set up to have a PPI done next Monday. I spent some time on the phone and got some details on the inspection process. In summary, the shop explained they use the same paperwork for a PPI as they do for commercial inspections. This is the inspection standard followed; it seems quite comprehensive:

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/CVIManual.pdf

If the PPI reveals nothing of major concern I will perform the driving tests that have been recommended here and then make a decision.

[windtrader]

I've got an appointment set up to have a PPI done next Monday

How did you find a place that is qualified to inspect these old two stroke buses? I've had great difficulty here in California. There are very few legally running on the roads here, basically converted buses only and a handful still operating as exempted in fleets.

[buswarrior]

There are lots of shops that can do a proper inspection on any vintage coach?
This is about the road worthiness of the vehicle.

Reality check: a GM coach is worth ~$3000 in scrap aluminum up here.

The gamble is on the other $3000, which is really less than that, as it includes more bits and pieces that can be sold off to cut the loss.

Beyond a tailpipe inspection, Cold start, what smoke comes out, does it clear up in what time/temperature, leaking externally? airbox drains dry, drip or puke, do all the gears work...

How much money/effort is reasonable to spend to protect less than $3000?

The PPI inspection has a dual purpose, check out the chassis, and a regulated step for getting the vehicle licensed in many jurisdictions.

Don't discount the value of good old common sense and perspective. Internet forums have a way of doing that...

happy coaching!
buswarrior