First Bus - seeking purchase advice

[majormojo]

Hi Folks,

Some background:
I've been looking into buying a vintage bus RV conversion for a couple years, we're now getting ready to make a purchase sometime soon. I've been looking closely at buses for sale nearby for several months and yesterday I went and looked at one we think is a good candidate; would appreciate any insight or advice you may have.

We've owned a travel trailer in the past and did several long-ish (3-4week) trips with it when our kids were younger. They're all adults now, so our intent is for my wife and I to use the bus for some winter getaways (we live in Edmonton, Canada) and for some weekends in the summer. I do auto racing, so sometimes we'd be pulling an open trailer w/race car, ~ 5000lb total and using the bus for accommodation at the track.



We know we're buying a project, not a finished unit, but we hope to make some use of it as we make improvements. We've done large home reno projects before, and my wife is onboard and interested in working on the interior upgrades and decoration. I'm comfortable with automotive mechanical work, though of course I've never worked on a bus before but I'm wanting to learn.

The bus we've found is a 1975 GMC Buffalo - P8M4905A-1181. The current seller has had it for 2 years and really hasn't changed or done much to it in that time but the previous previous owner (PPO?) did quite a bit of work. The history as it's told to me (no documentation for anything of course...):

- Converted in the late 80's probably (int. decor seems to support that) and PPO did quite a bit of work making upgrades
- 2 x 65 gal fresh water tanks & new pump
- Maint/updates of suspension (at least some new airbags)
- New tires all around
- Updated/replaced appliances & plumbing - fridge, sink, tankless HW heater, toilet, vanity/sink
- "Rebuillt" or "refreshed" engine
- New electrical for coach: 24 to 12v converter, 120v breaker panel & wiring AC/DC converter, 12v fuse panel
- The bus was brought to Alberta from another province and underwent a provincial inspection and some required upgrades when the PO bought it 2 yrs ago. Has current registration/insurance as an RV.   

Other notes:
- The bus currently has no generator.
- There has been some past leaks in the roof, but repaired by PPO. PO says he's had no leaks.
- There are many broken (cracked) windows.
- Some windows seem to have leaks where the sliding panes meet. Guessing bad weather seals.
- The bus odometer shows 862,xxx (miles I assume)
- Bus has travelled about 6000 km since the engine work was done.
- There are many new hose clamps and new stainless braided hoses on the engine that do support there having been some work done in the not too distant past.
- The plumbing for sinks, bath, toilet etc looks fairly new, also supports story of PPO doing upgrades from original conversion.
- I looked for every steel structure I could find and could only see minor surface rust.
- There is some kind of heater unit behind the driver that might be an original? It's behind a screwed down mesh panel and I could not get a good look at it.





The bus started quickly (was last started 2 wks ago) and after some warmup was running at a nice idle. I made a video of the engine bay with engine running. https://goo.gl/photos/pLTNnhnFTNRz3jX68




From my reading here, I knew to look into the storage bays and under the driver seat to see the condition of the steel there. I could not see anything other than some minor surface rust (and lots of grease & dust!). But I'm not sure I was looking precisely at the potential problem areas. My photos are in the album below.





https://goo.gl/photos/Jy8mfG1mo9fVYT2z7

I'd really appreciate any input from the knowledgeable people here.

The owner is asking CAD$8K (~USD$6K) which seems reasonable if everything checks out as it appears. Our next step if we decide to proceed will be to have a professional mechanical inspection done to make sure there's nothing fatal or $$$ that I can't see and am not qualified to assess. So I'm looking for your advice to help decide if I should move forward.

Thanks in advance!

[eagle19952]

i have seen way worse.
$6000.00 is as close to free for a bus that will drive away that you will find...

[DoubleEagle]

Does not look bad, from what we can see. What transmission? Does it have power steering? Have you priced replacing broken glass, or eliminating the windows in question? If it has a 4 speed Spicer manual and manual steering, it will be more challenging to drive, and it will not be geared very low for hills or towing.

[PP]

Does not look bad, from what we can see. What transmission? Does it have power steering? Have you priced replacing broken glass, or eliminating the windows in question? If it has a 4 speed Spicer manual and manual steering, it will be more challenging to drive, and it will not be geared very low for hills or towing.

If like Walter says, are you prepared mentally and physically for a manual trans w/o power steering. Also, have an oil analysis done before committing to anything. These old 2 strokes will run on broken legs, if you get my drift. Good luck and welcome to the board,
Will

[Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM]

If you are considering buying ANY bus the best advice I can give you is to immerse yourself in as many Bus Conversion Magazines as you can.  At the absolute minimum, sign up for a subscription to Bus Conversion Magazine today which you can do in our BCM Store.  There are monthly articles about converting, building, maintaining, traveling and living in a bus conversion. If you can afford to, buy as many back issues as you can afford.  I can almost guarantee you that you will save that money over and over if you have never owned a bus conversion in the past.  We offer "Bundles" of magazines at a reduced price.  Call the office for more info. (657) 221-0432.

[wildbob24]

1975 is a good year for the Buffalo. It came from the factory with sheppard integral power steering, air throttle and 2 circuit brake system.

Towing with a GM bus is problematic because of the rear design. Tongue weight is the big issue because the hitch has to be attached to the engine cradle which is already supporting 4000+ pounds of running gear. It can be done with a well designed hitch, but most GM guys say tongue weight should be limited to 300 pounds. That might be hard to do with a 5000 pound trailer.

Start ability with the 4 speed will be an issue, as well. Any thing another than level ground will be hard on the clutch and it doesn't take much abuse to destroy one.

Looking at all the photos, I see some rotten wood at one of the window sills, so the windows have been leaking for a while. A common problem when this happens is rotten floors where the bay door torsion bars mount. You should open the bay doors and check for soft floors around the torsion bars.

You'll want to check the date code on the tires to determine their real age.

At the asking price, this bus has a lot of potential. That being said, It can't hurt to offer him less, since there is no documentation.

Bob

[Runcutter]

I'd be surprised if it didn't have power steering.  I drove and instructed on 4903's & 4905's, some of much earlier vintage, all had PS.  The non-synchromesh manual transmission does take getting used to, but I never had anyone who couldn't pick it up.  Only issue was two buses we bought in the first year of air throttles, RPM's died so quickly that I always had trouble.  Other guys had no trouble with them.  Earlier years (cable throttles), and later year air-throttles were OK.  Every bus is unique, even two buses with consecutive serial numbers would shift a little differently -- but not very different from idiosyncrasies in any two vehicles.

The significant thing to think about with 4903's & 05's is the long wheelbase.  The way I instructed, to make a turn in downtown Boston, go by the corner, halfway down the next block, then think about turning the wheel.  Old days, if you took a corner in a 35 foot transit with the right rear wheel 6 inches from the curb, make the same turn in a 40 foot transit, you'd run over the curb.  Same thing in a 4905, you'd go over the curb, the sidewalk, and maybe hit the building.

They were a fine coach, just had to treat them with respect.

Arthur

[chessie4905]

Looks pretty good for that kind of money.I'd jump n it if it were me. With a standard transmission, it should have the 4:27 rear end ratio. It should start out easily. Just ease out the clutch and governor should pick up engine speed prior to adding throttle. You can dismantle windows to replace cracked glass, and Luke can probably get window seals. Assume roof leaks and you'll need to investigate and repair. Since roof and bows are aluminum, there won't be rot problems there.

[chessie4905]

Looks pretty good for that kind of money.I'd jump n it if it were me. With a standard transmission, it should have the 4:27 rear end ratio. It should start out easily. Just ease out the clutch and governor should pick up engine speed prior to adding throttle. You can dismantle windows to replace cracked glass, and Luke can probably get window seals. Assume roof leaks and you'll need to investigate and repair. Since roof and bows are aluminum, there won't be rot problems there.
Yes, it has power steering. You can see the pump in one of the engine pictures. That mesh enclosure behind driver's seat could be an air return for HVAC. My 1975 shell has one.

[majormojo]

Thank you for all the responses. The bus does have power steering and 4 speed manual non-synchro transmission. I've learned from racing cars how to double-clutch, heel-and-toe and do rev-match no-clutch shifting. So I don't think learning the trans will be an issue.

I will look closer at the wood areas beneath the leaking windows around the bay doors. The bus has a lightweight hitch on it now (just bolted to the bumper), but I'm prepared to get a shop to design and install a proper custom hitch. I don't know tongue weight off hand, but it's likely not much because I can balance the car easily over the trailer axles. The real issue is likely when it all starts bouncing down the road - worst case, I'm OK with using a "trailer toad" to deal with towing.

I did a little digging and that heater behind the mesh is a Suburban propane heater.

Anything else that I should look carefully at? I tried to dig around as much as I could but don't know the specifics.

Cheers,

[lostagain]

Regarding shifting, here is RJ Long's article on shifting a bus transmission:

http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=41

JC

[windtrader]

I'm new as well, currently searching for a used conversion.

The most important and critical facts about the bus is the "Rebuillt" or "refreshed" engine and state of the transmission. Unless you have detailed invoices including what was done and who did the rebuild, walk away. Same with tranny.

Although you are willing to commit time and energy, one thing much harder to avoid is buying parts. Make very sure you get a good sense of bus parts as they are many times more than auto parts.

Six grand is tempting but do your research here and read the many, many stories about costly repairs. Even replacing the set of air bags all around will make that seemingly good buy not look so good anymore. God forbid you end up doing a major in-frame or out-of-frame motor rebuild and the check to buy the bus will seem like chump change.

Be very careful, there are so many ways to die in this "hobby". Good luck.

[luvrbus]

Check the cooling system close, both bus models can have major cooling problems,on a 4905 check the brake drums those are not to be had any where if needed.
I understand you can convert the drums to different drums but no telling what it would cost,the MCI brake drums are off the shelf Webb drums fwiw.
The exhaust system on a 4905 is another problem you cannot find new parts when needed for the system.Both are good buses but it will get down to how both were maintained in their previous life.Towing a trailer IMO the MCI is your best bet with the tag axle   

Good Luck    

[TomC]

If you are under 5'10" tall, then the GMC will be fine with the A/C's hanging down. I prefer the MCI's with T drive, 6'10" headroom and in the MCI 102C3, 102" wide with huge windows. Just because the bus is cheap from the beginning, doesn't mean it won't cost alot later. Sometimes, buying a more expensive bus in better shape with more modern equipment will be less in the long run. Good Luck, Tomc

[B_K]

If you are under 5'10" tall, then the GMC will be fine with the A/C's hanging down. I prefer the MCI's with T drive, 6'10" headroom and in the MCI 102C3, 102" wide with huge windows. Just because the bus is cheap from the beginning, doesn't mean it won't cost alot later. Sometimes, buying a more expensive bus in better shape with more modern equipment will be less in the long run. Good Luck, Tomc

And if you have an articulated bus of ANY kind it is illegal in the state fo Kentucky as KY considers it to be a Class A bus and Class A buses are illegal in that state! (just ask Grayline of Nashville, as they found out hard way when they used to run them up & down I-24 from Nashville to Metropolis, IL to the casino everyday until a DOT officer was hanging out with a certain wrecker who was hooking up to a broke down tractor trailer and the wrecker driver asked "now just how does Grayline get away with running Class A buses in KY, but we were told they are illegal here?" The DOT officer went to his car and was on the radio for a few minutes and came back and said "Hey good talking to you, gotta go!" As The wrecker driver was headed back toward Paducah he came across a Grayline H5-60 bus pulled over by a DOT officer!)
  BK