Broken down, toasted engine??

[eagle19952]

Wonder what it would cost to ship it on a railroad flat car?

i used to move a lot of construction machinery ... one time 48 trailer loads from Seattle to northern Ontario.

the railroad offered a bid... but their load requirements and BS i would not have endured for free..

[Tom Y]

George, How is this coming? Hoping for good things for you and your bus.  Tom

[Geom]

OK guys, time for a (not so) quick update.

The last few days have been a whirlwind mix of heartache, resignation, and resolve.
It's also been an endless series of differing options and analysis paralysis 

But after a lot of thought, we've decided to go ahead and get a replacement engine from American Fleet. It just felt like the decision that puts us into a more predictable and known state with our engine.
Brian from American has been great to work with. He's been forthcoming with information, timely with his responses, knowledgable of our situation, and generally a good guy to work with. Hopefully their engines are as good as their employees 

We had seriously considered rebuilding this engine (both onsite here or with the gracious help of others on the forum), but figured that a rebuilt engine has already had the "oh, that part should really be replaced too" scope-creep already dealt with.
The cost of a rebuild (using this shop) and that of a reman were very close. And perhaps it's misplaced faith, but it seemed to me a fully rebuilt and already tested-functional engine would be the faster way to get back on the road and not spend weeks (months??) trying to get this one going again.

A big thanks to everyone for their advice, information, and support. It was invaluable in helping me make this rather tough and unpleasant decision.

Now, onto the actual progress,

The engine was pulled early this week. The shop was able to pull it out in a day (afternoon, reall). It was a pretty straight forward process.
It's surreal seeing that engine sitting on a pallet, with a giant gaping hole in the back of the bus where an engine should be.

After checking into the serial number, it appears that this engine was a right-hand 6v92 in a previous incarnation.

American fleet suggested that it would be better to send them the current engine, so they can make sure that the replacement is as close to this one as possible. While that will obviously add delay, it seemed like a reasonable step.

We had hoped that our engine would be on its way today, but the shop didn't get to taking the engine apart today. So they'll be working on that early next week, and hopefully be on its way by Tuesday.

We are taking this opportunity to check all the other supporting parts (air compressor, power steering pump, starter, etc) checked, to make sure they're still up to par.

We will be recoring the radiator. It looks like the current radiator is a 3 core. If we can get it to fit, I'd like to get a 5 core as a replacement. We'll be getting two different radiator shops looking at that next week.
Along with that, we'll have them look at the transmission intercooler to make sure it's still healthy.

We're also going to drop the transmission pan and make sure things in there don't look gummy, worn, charred, scorched, etc. While not a guarantee of health by any means, it'll tell us if the trans should also get some attention.


As is always the case with something like this, I'm sure the scope creep will be endless. But it's really tempting to have all this shtuff dealt with now with the engine out and on a cradle, rather than later on the side of the road 
And hopefully the process of reassembling Humpty Dumpty back together again won't be as painful as I'm currently suspecting/expecting it to be (yeah right  )

That's all for now, but I'll try to continue providing status updates as we get them.

Also, if anyone has additional suggestions of things to look out for, check, inspect, change, etc with the engine out, please let me know.

Thanks again for all of the help,
George

[luvrbus]

Hang in there George it's only money my motto "you can't take it with you and sure don't go anywhere with out it". I hope you get back on the road soon being in a shop for a month can take a toll on you mentally BTDT.

I am in Phoenix working on a 15 year old Jasper re-man 8v71 turbo engine one of the better re-man engines I have came across in while not 1 used bolt on the engine    

[Scott & Heather]

George, we are all here rooting for you. When this is over, you'll have a coach that will likely outlive you. Just sayin. Keep us updated. Photos are always nice too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Geom]

it's only money ... "you can't take it with you and sure don't go anywhere with out it"

Thanks guys for the kind words of encouragement.
Believe me, they're quite helpful at a time like this.

We are just trying to keep focus on the larger picture, in some hopefully not too distant future.
And indeed, having a rig that will "outlive us" sure would be nice.
Here's to hoping

Clifford, I LOVE the above quote. I think I'm going to use that one myself

Scott, I'll try to post some pics once I get them uploaded off of the camera.
Not a whole lot to look at, right now, other than busted valves, slap-worn rocker arms, and a trashed piston, LOL.
But it should make for some "oh, look at that" viewing

[Scott & Heather]

Exactly. Honestly you're going through something most of us on here consider one of our worst bus-related nightmares and I give kudos and hats off to those of you who have faced and come through a catastrophic engine failure. Heather and I are rapidly trying to save our pennies for such a time as this. And since we are Fulltimers with no home except the coach, it's even more serious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sledhead]

maybe I am wrong but .... the 1st part of the rebuild of the coach was not just the inside rework but had to include the mechanical stuff like new brakes,drums ,air bags ,shocks ,tires .+ a out of frame rebuild was always on the to do list and I shopped around because I had time and found a great shop to do the work . I pulled the engine , transmission out with the help of a truck mechanic ( less then 3 hours to remove ) removed the transmission and shipped the engine on a skid by way of truck ( $ 500.00 ) each way to Leids diesel for the full rebuild at a cost of $ 10 k and 3 weeks from the day it was sent out to the day it returned . while it was gone it gave me time to clean up the engine bay and rebuild the stuff that needed it.

my point is how can you gamble with the fact that this was a in service BUS the day before I bought it and drove it home and the reason it was for sale was it was worn out . so it has to be part of the full rebuild and if it is done before the on the road explosion ever happens the cost and the stress is far less

but I see all the time people buy these old buses and spend to much money on the rebuild of the shinny stuff on the inside ( I did the same ) and not on the mechanical stuff that is like a ticking time bomb waiting to go boom  

I hope all goes well with the rebuild and the idea of sending them the old engine to set up the new rebuild the same is a solid plan . but there will be stuff that will have to be adjusted on the install .

best of luck   dave      

[luvrbus]

The engines are the basically the same L or R the rebuilder probably needs parts from the engine to complete his rebuild like the fan drive those parts are getting hard to find now,just a guess but I am thinking they need his oil pump and cams.

I would tell the guy build me 350 hp 6v92 with a bypass blower and 1100 ft lbs of torque since he is re-coring the radiator that is a no brainier,George is paying now is the time to get what he wants not what they want       

[Geom]

Ok guys, another quick update, and seeking some advice

The old engine is finally apart, sitting on a shipping mount (after a little bit of confusion on the engine shipping mount) and should be on a truck heading to MO this afternoon.
In the meantime I'm trying to work through the other non-engine work, while we wait.

So I had two radiator guys come by the shop today and get me a quote.

The first guy looked at the rad, talked really fast, and said, "you need less radiator".
I'm thinking, "WTH is this guy talking about?".

After clarifying what that means, he explained it this way,
He wants to put a radiator in there that has fewer fins per inch than the current one.
The current one is 11/in and the new one would be 8 or 9/in.
His logic being to allow more air through, which I can sort of see.
This model would be roughly the same thickness as the current radiator. He believes this solution would provide 20% better cooling than what's in there. He attributed that to better airflow and better and more "modern" materials.

He also threw out another option of a thinner rad, that is actually 13/in (thus seemingly negating what he'd just said). He said the thinner rad would allow for better airflow.

Anyway, his bid was $1600-1800 (plus whatever Stewart and Stevenson "adds on" for the privilege of having this done in their shop?).
He would basically be reusing everything from the original rad, minus the core (tanks mounts, etc). I haven't got the "final" bid from S&S and I'm curious how much they'll "tack on" for this, and it'll be interesting to see how much they do tack on.
I don't know if this is normal, but I don't get why they'd add anything (beyond he install) at all, since I'm the one buying the rad, not them.


The other guy bid out a complete replacement of the rad. He'd be installing an equivalent thickness rad (which is about 3.5"), but this one is "fancy" (whatever the hell that translates to). 
The brand is called Optimum and it has 5 rows. And the rad guy said "it's the best cooling radiator he's ran across in 30 years in the business".

His bid was $2470, and he would remount the external transmission oil cooler, so it's better attached and leaves an air space between it and the engine rad.
He'd also charge $230 to clean out the oil cooler and install new gaskets (since it currently has a small leak).


I must admit I wasn't expecting anywhere near this much for a radiator, but I really want to make sure that I don't have (or significantly minimize) any cooling issues with this new engine.

So what are your guys' thoughts?
Are these prices somewhere within reason?
Has anyone heard of, or used that brand of rad?
Should I keep looking?
Other options?

Thanks,
George

[Iceni John]

I recently got my radiator recored by Atlas Radiator in Santa Fe Springs CA  -  I know, not a likely source for you!   They made me a copper/brass "high performance" core, about 34" x 28.5", 6 rows (4" deep), dimpled tubes, high fin count (I haven't counted how many per inch, but it's the most they could do), with 73 tubes per row (the old core had only 57 per row).   It was about $2000 out the door.   It weighs noticeably more than my old core, presumably because it has 28% more tubes and is 10% larger surface area.   I had my old tanks blasted and powder-coated, and used all stainless hardware to rebolt them to the core.   Yes, my new core will have more airflow resistance due to much denser tube and fin counts, but I also had Multi-Wing make me a 9-blade fan which should pull a lot more air than the archaic old metal fan, and to turn this new fan I had QCC make me a new Webster YC hydraulic gear motor because the old one was leaking internally from years of wear.   Multi-Wing suggested I have the fan turn the opposite direction than before to improve airflow out of the radiator shroud  -  instead of the bottom of the fan rotating towards the front of the bus it now rotates towards the rear, so the spiral of air coming off the fan won't be fighting the airflow under the bus when driving.   I was having a new motor made anyway, so why not?   I also have riveted a 3"-wide duct inside the lip of the radiator shroud so the tips of the fan blades will be entirely within this duct  -  this should also slightly improve airflow by reducing turbulence inside the shroud.   The old hydraulic fluid cooler that used to sit outside the radiator is now relocated:  I don't want anything blocking airflow to the radiator.   I may even cut off some of the radiator door's horizontal slats to make it more conducive to bending the air in as I drive.   I'm presently installing a big remote transmission fluid cooler to reduce the heatload into the engine coolant  -  every degree counts!

I had serious overheating issues this year, hence my complete replacement of essentially my entire cooling system.   I also replaced both thermostats and Alarmstat switch, even though the old ones were still working OK.   It's a lot of work to do all this, but if you want to increase power you will need all the cooling you can get.   If you are redoing things now, just do it as best as possible  -  don't take short cuts or be talked into having something done that only helps the salesman.   You want maximum coolant contact surface area, maximum air contact surface, maximum airflow and unobstructed coolant flow.

Here's some info from a large manufacturer  -  it may help you when you talk to radiator salesmen:  http://www.showmetheparts.com/thermalsolutionsmfg-hdam/   Click on Knowledge Center, then Core Information.

John  

[wayne]

I pulled the main and aux radiators out of mine and disassembled them.. Took the cores to a local radiator shop where he measured them, opened a catalog and ordered both rads for me.. I blasted and painted my tanks, replaced hardware and reassembled them when the cores came in. The main core was $800 and the aux core $500. I didn't think that was too terrible for two large rads.

[Scott & Heather]

Honestly, less radiator always worries me. You're getting plenty of air flow through your current rads. I wouldn't lower the amount of surface area that you already have. That's what dissipates the heat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GM0406]

Read all this and have come to the conclusion that you are better off paying more for a coach if the owner has properly done the mechanicals.  My '06 has never given us any trouble, but we had to pay twice as much as the '04 and subsequently spent $15K on a crank replacement in the '04. 

Now on the '04 George Thornhill opened the rectangular sign area on the back door and installed metal mesh to keep birds out.  That coach (671) never goes over 180 degrees even though it has N-65 injectors, 4 valve head and what appears to be a larger blower with large air inlet on a high block head.  So his hole in the rear door evidently has some real heat extraction value. 

My '06 (8V-71) on the other hand is turboed and will heat.  But it has misters and the greatest amount of heat rejection possible is by water evaporation, period.  When you are climbing in hot weather with a line behind you with nowhere to turn out, the flick of a switch puts out the fire fast.  Am considering doing the same door modification to that coach, and would like input from anyone using water injection which seems to be a very logical step to further reduce heat and probably increase efficiency.  Have a friend who water injects a cummins and he is one of the most meticulous anal nit pickers that I have ever known.  Also a top notch auto electric guru.  Bill T.  P.S. Thought it was a lot easier to work in the engine room of that 07, especially on a 6V which should be smaller than a monster 8V?

[busfan]

Sorry to hear about the troubles,

I know you had a valve lash problem, but for my own curiosity; I have heard it is better to keep the rev's up on the inclines to cool the detroits. Dunno how true that is?!

I hope you ride off into the sunset with a motor and coach that last's!

George