Electrical Question for 73 05 Eagle

[Gary LaBombard]

Hey guys,
Me again with another question I am sure some would say I should get someone who knows more to fix.  Problem, Tracing all old wires in 12v system now and getting readings on continuity check on wires state at times that some wiring has both neg and pos possibilities with continuity check?  Not making much sense to me but now I am truly in an area where I am stumped.  I have choosen to use a converter in place of inverter as I do not plan many if any dry camping and that would only be another maintenance item to go wrong.  I know many of you will disagree with me but I am trying to minimize overrun cost to get on the road.  I have a new converter but not sure how to put it in line.  I will list my steps I need to accomplish and if anyone with electrical knowledge can just steer me straight I will draw it out to your spec.  
1) 2 12 volt batteries for house led lights, water heater, furnace & refer. Batteries now connected to 12v side of converter to activate the 6 blade connections for 6 wires.
 
2) new 6 blade converter with connections for 12 volt wires and the converter will be feed directly from the battery as well to make the charging facility work to keep batteries charged when plugged into shore power.  the only draw on the batteries while traveling will be the lights if used by my copilot.  We will always use Gas for the refer for on the road.

3) hot water heater & fresh water tank pump will be wired per instructions both the same.

4) On off switch over the stove, part of the stove vent controls also has as a place for the water pump on this stove vent and hot water heater.  Both switches have lights indicating they are on. I just need directions to run the HOT wire to be run to have the hot water heater work properly through the on/off switch over the stove.  I will follow the same directions for the water pump through the on off switch for that control.

Thanks again ahead of time, please no negativity, need simplicity on connection but effective hot run procedure.  
Gary

 

[Oonrahnjay]

...  2) new 6 blade converter with connections for 12 volt wires and the converter will be feed directly from the battery as well to make the charging facility work to keep batteries charged when plugged into shore power.  the only draw on the batteries while traveling will be the lights if used by my copilot.  ...  Gary 

      I'm a little unsure the details you're talking about. What are the specs on the converter, Gary?  What is the voltage and type (AC or DC) going in and what's the spec of the power coming out?  What's the max amperage?

[Gary LaBombard]

Bruce, Here is photos of the cover of my converter, I hope this will help you with your questions.
Gary

[Gary LaBombard]

Bruce, I hope the photos above open up bigger for you, I cannot get them to open up to larger size to view.
1) Series 6300, model 6345 with battery charger   45 amp.
2( Electrical rating input 7.8amps, 120 vac 60 HZ
3)12 VDC fuseblock, max. branch circuit fuse size 20A
4) Average charge rate 5 amps.
5) electrical rating: Max Main 30 Amps 120 vac
I am not sure if this is enough info, let me know.  Everything I have is in the photos I sent you if they expand so you can read them.  Thanks ahead of time

[Lin]

The last time I had an converter it only was for 12v DC, so I am not familiar with the AC hookups.  Are you using a separate AC panel, or is this serve for both?  If there is no separate panel, I would guess that your AC power cord connects to the unit.  Is the pump switch on the range hood going to be the only pump switch?  Anyway, to use the range hood switches, you would have to connect them in line with the pump and water heater or set up a relay system.

If you need to trace wires, you might want to invest in a tone generator, sometimes called a cable tracer. It is a two part electronic tool.  You attach the tone generator part to the source of the wire you wish to trace, and you use the receiver to touch wires down the line. The one with the loudest tone is the right one.  They work great for DC wiring.  They also work for AC wiring, but the current must be off to avoid signal interference.

[Gary LaBombard]

Lin, I am using a separate AC panel.  The AC circuit breakers in the converter will only be used to feed the 12v side of the converter when connected to shore power.   Yes, the pump switch on the range hood is the only pump switch I will have as well as the one for the Hot water tank.  I only have to finish this part of the AC /DC of my conversion then I am all done with this stuff and not one more conversion for me, EVER!!  I have run AC from my main AC panel to the AC side of the converter which is needed to convert 1c to dc. 

[Oonrahnjay]

     Thanks for the info on the converter, Gary.  It looks like a very useful and well-made component.  I was not sure how the battery fits in the system, but I see it's attached to "Stud C".   Which components are you running off 120V - I'm guessing at least the water heater; anything else? 
     I think that the discussion shows that you're doing well and things are looking good.  I second the suggestion on a "circuit finder" tool.
     Best wishes, and good luck,   BH

[Gary LaBombard]

Bruce
what is your suggested (+) path for my power from the converter to connect the items mentioned at beginning of post?  I was not intending to run anything off the two legs I have left of the converter 110v side, I was only going to use this 1st circuit breaker which is also the main feed to the circuit breakers in the box as well as the Main Feed supply to the 12v side of the converter when hooked up to shore power only.  That means that you really only have two other open circuit breakers which up to now I had no intention to use.  But now I will consider the two other circuit breakers that is if I need anything more on the 110v side and my MAIN Circuit breaker box gets full.  I still have 3 open circuits there now in the main circuit breaker box..  BUT, my hot water heater is run off GAS and has only the 12v signal to ignite it.

I really need a connection plan how to wire this up on the 12v supplies only to both the hot water (ON/off) switch and then to the heater or converter.  Confusing which way to run correctly.  Once I get this down in my head it has to be simple but I do not want any wires to be hot on the negative lines which I do now at times concerning the hot water tank.  Oh I will be so freakin glad to get this done!!

Hope I do not have you confused an my plan, simplicity for my connection request is best

Here is what I think I need to do, please correct me if wrong.
Run (+) wire from battery to another distribution box with terminal block for(+) 12 volt only then,  directly continue (+) run to ON/Off switch on range hood, then (+) from the other side of on/off switch to one side of hot water heater red wire, then from the other red wire on the heater to the converter with the 12 volt circuit breaker. 

The negatives of coarse are all run separate also to separate distribution terminal block box for only the ground wires all to meet as well as having this terminal block attached to the bus frame on a good clean spot. 

Hope I am right on this, I could sure use directions on this ASAP as I wish to work on again tomorrow.
Thanks again.

[Lin]

Why can't each appliance be just grounded to the frame where they are? Doesn't the converter work such that whether you are on the battery or shore power, the appliances are just supplied by one hot wire from the converter? Hence, for example, one hot wire from the converter goes to your pump switch and continues through the switch to the pump which is grounded where it is.  Throw the switch and the pump turns on.  AC wiring is, of course, different.  Isn't each of the DC lugs on the converter already fused? Am I missing something?

[Gary LaBombard]

Lin, Like everything else I have done on this bus I have overdone out of trust of my bus and the chance of losing ground, EVER.  I have seen others on this board lose ground for one thing or other and they had a hell of a time finding where the problem is.  Remember, I am the one who Double Framed his entire Lower frame of his bus!  I Just overbuild no matter what I do.  Anyhow everything I install (Electrical)I run a separate ground wire for  to a central grounding place which is also grounded directly to the battery to lessen the grounding problem in the  future.  I know this is a lot of wire but I got a lot of wire from a place going out of business, and so I used it.  You would not want me to work for you as everything I  build would cost you money and no one would ever come back to get it fixed as it will never break.  Only kidding on this one!

all the lugs on the converter are fused Lin.One problem I have is my hot water tank is in a very tight area to get to all the wiring to see what in hell is doing what.  I know what wire is the ground but there is (2) red wires on the connection point on the the tank, each of them when checked give me a signal on the continuity check on my wire intended to go to my converter which I believe is in reverse wiring to what you recommend.  It looks like the (+) feed whet to the hot water tank first then to the switch?  I Have no idea if this works like a two way switch  per the PO rewiring or not. I do not have enough time to pull out hot water tank.  Looking from the front panel outside of the bus, different color of wires is used, some really lot smaller like 16/14 ga.  Will take more time to run continuity check on outside of bus wires to determine what one is hot wire.  no idea what the other one does at this time but just have to, just have to take more time and try to figure this out.  This is one thing I have been quite unsure of in my entire conversion, there is so much to know in a process like this and why I encourage others to buy a bus already converted of a newer year of building as well.  This sucks to waste so much time but very, very rewarding when you accomplish it.

I plan to use the path you mentioned Lin, from the converter lug nut, onto the switch then on to the tank.  Have to figure out the use of the other red wire though. it will be simple to run a new feed wire or what ever I have to do to reverse the procedure now used if I understand it correctly.  Anyhow everyone thanks so much for the help.

[Dreamscape]

Gary,

Found this on the net, hope it helps.

[luvrbus]

Gary, make it easy just use a Iota DLS charger and forget the converter, use a fuse buse bar and a ground buse bar everything connected to the batteries,then drop the extra charging lead to your starting batteries.Converters are a problem and kill batteries even the newer ones I just tossed one from the Trek and went with the above setup mentioned that has worked in Matt's Eagle for 20 years.Boats don't use converters just good chargers and a battery bank fwiw   

[thomasinnv]

Gary that looks like an old style single stage "battery boiler" so just a word of advise, unless you plan on replacing it later with a 3 stage smart charger, be extra careful about battery maintenance. It will boil batteries.

[Gary LaBombard]

OK you guys, thanks to all by the way.  I have been told and read about the battery charger part of a converter possibly boiling a battery etc.  My instructions on the panel says it automatically cuts out when battery is full charge but I will succum to your suggestions with one modification.

I will put a battery cut off to the (+) side going to the converter that when we are connected to shore power that the batteries do not get charged and like you suggested Cliff use a good battery charger which I also have and will use and cut out the threat of losing my batteries.

Using the converter when connected to shore power will still allow me to use my converter as a main feed to the 12v system I believe as the shore power immediately switches the converter from 110v to 12v.  When we stop to camp etc, I just have to remember to switch off the battery charging part.  I will leave instructions at unhook and hook up time to engage or disengage shut off switch. I will need the 12v side of my converter to work while on the road using the batteries. I think I got this pretty covered now, thanks so much as usual for the guidance, this is the damndest thing throwing me a loop and some of you may laugh but I don't know everything obviously.
Gary

[thomasinnv]

Gary you can just remove the lower section (charger) and replace it with the converter/charger of your choice, retaining the rest of the panel and fuses etc. I do it all the time on older rv's.