It seems that these days the hottest new technology for medium and heavy vehicles is fuel cells. Reportedly GM and others are heavily invested in making it work. The upsurge in battery powered EVs has brought in development of motors and controls systems, reducing the development costs for fuel cells, leaving primarily the cells themselves and the high pressure tanks for storing hydrogen gas. The chief development in fuel cell technology has been the recognition that a great deal of air must be forced through and the development of means for doing that. Presently it looks like a very high speed electrically driven turbine is the most efficient. Think turbo without the exhaust scroll.
I had always hoped they could find a way to use more base fuel gasses such as hydrocarbons rather than pure hydrogen but haven't heard of much progress on that front.
Jim
Not sure what happened to fuel cells. There was earnest research funded by the auto industry and government a number of years ago. Clearly EV has the momentum now. What is the state of fuel cells today, can it cooexist with EV or due to magnitude of capital investment in either, only one will roll forward?
Maybe someone else can expand on this, but I recall a video years ago about a technology to dissolve Hydrogen gas in a solid power. It's not that the H would be cooled to a solid (not possible) but dissolved, like CO2 in soda. This would allow for high density storage at low pressure. This could then be used for a fuel cell, or a normal internal combustion engine.
I do agree, that EVs based on batteries is not sustainable, but it appears to be the emperor's new clothes.
Not sure how the title of the thread fits...
Usually when I think of fuel cells I think of vehicle propulsion. When I think of solar cells I think of charging the house batteries.
Is someone working on a way to use fuel cells to run a generator or to somehow charge batteries? If so, would it be as silent as using solar cells?
To me, a major advantage of solar cells is the silence. Fits in with camping really well. Generator? Not so much.
Thus the reason for our measly 500 watts of panels shading our roof...
Fuel cells are more like motors than batteries - generate vs storing power. There are two tank that store material that is combined that creates on demand power for whatever - car, generator..
Well, curiosity hasn't killed me yet. Quickly found this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVM5XLgpe8o
Explains that there are indeed are fuel cell cars available from Toyota and Honda, in CA of course. Stumbling block is fueling infrastructure with about 50 stations in the main population corridor between LA, SAC, SFO. Once in awhile I have seen the fuel cell badge but on smaller commercial delivery type trucks.
Funding for fuel cell stations per the talking head is 60/40, government and 40 from auto makers and fuel vendors.
Personally, I don't see it gaining traction here after all this time and the competition from EV.
I expect the blower to move air through it would make some noise, and the more power you had to produce the more noise it would have to make. Anyway if they are planning to use them in large trucks they would have to produce a lot of power. I'd heard about that adsorbent thing also, something like the way they do acetylene I think. I believe that is adsorbed into acetone and lowers the pressure into the 200 psi range. Which would be good as they were talking about 10,000 psi with hydrogen.
Fuel cells and solar cells definitely can coexist. And I even think you can run fuel cells backwards which along with a compressor would make it usable for energy storage. Not sure how competitive with batteries it would be in terms of efficiency but for volume it should be better. Quicker refills too.
Jim
The only reasonable alternative to solar cells is a generator though in order of ease of use and reliability I would rank them:
1. Diesel generator
2. Propane generator
3. Gas generator
As to hydrogen that is still a pipe dream and I don't seriously see it used in any road vehicles. There is currently a serious prototype in design; maybe construction for a ocean going cargo ship that will use it. Hydrogen requires serious infrastructure and makes sense that it could be done in major ocean ports, verses thousands of micro stations for powering cars and trucks.
Airbus is making noise about 2035; of having airliners that run on liquid hydrogen.
Back to electric vehicles if it's anything other than Tesla it's a joke/compliance vehicle.
I have been very happy Tesla owner for over six years now and have taken major trips in it, no muss no fuss!!! It's just as fast and reliable as the day I purchased it and hey I am only a couple ounces of foot pressure from releasing my inter demon at any point in time....
QuoteI have been very happy Tesla owner for over six years now and have taken major trips in it, no muss no fuss!!! It's just as fast and reliable as the day I purchased it and hey I am only a couple ounces of foot pressure from releasing my inter demon at any point in time....
You live near Seattle, an area accepting and adopting new technology. Unless you live and breath it around you, some won't be convinced about how rapidly EV is expanding. I'm pretty sure at this point most, if not every major auto manufacturer offer an EV model in the USA.
Quote from: freds on October 10, 2020, 09:43:02 AM
As to hydrogen that is still a pipe dream and I don't seriously see it used in any road vehicles.
They said that about battery powered vehicles up until just a few years ago too. Even when they began to gain some acceptance it wasn't until after hybrids paved the way. How often do you make cross country trips?
So the point is that it no longer such a huge task. Many parts have already been taken care of.
-motors: done and dusted
-controls: same
-fuel storage: good prospects
-energy conversion: proven and improving
The infrastructure issue is no different that the early days of the battery car, or indeed the early days of the conventional engine, so not truly a barrier.
Diss it all you like. Tesla had the exact same growing pains and look at you now. Leading the cheers.
Jim
When "Arnold Schwarzenegger" was Governor in California he had them coming out with Hydrogen cars and he would drive them around down by the capital then said that they were going to change all the state cars to them. When he was done with his term they kind of disappeared?. Don't remember what happened to them.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on October 10, 2020, 11:34:42 AM
When "Arnold Schwarzenegger" was Governor in California he had them coming out with Hydrogen cars and he would drive them around down by the capital then said that they were going to change all the state cars to them. When he was done with his term they kind of disappeared?. Don't remember what happened to them.
A good friend of mine owns Arnolds civilian Hummer 1, it resides in AZ now still running Hydrogen
"Refueling availability" and who is going to "pay for it" are bigger deciders, perhaps...
Electricity infrastructure already exists, and the government seems happy to buy votes, pandering with "charging stations" scattered here and there...
Follow the money, all of it... the best tech won't win, the most profitable/least liable one will...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Personally I don't care. I'm perfectly happy burning dinosaurs to get around, and I'm not in the market for any new stuff. Generally these days when someone starts yapping about the New Thing, I run the other way.
But I always did think those fuel cells had potential. If only they could burn dirty fuel... Go down that road far enough and you'll be dumping garbage in the hopper, Mr Fusion style.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on October 10, 2020, 10:06:39 AM
They said that about battery powered vehicles up until just a few years ago too. Even when they began to gain some acceptance it wasn't until after hybrids paved the way. How often do you make cross country trips?
So the point is that it no longer such a huge task. Many parts have already been taken care of.
-motors: done and dusted
-controls: same
-fuel storage: good prospects
-energy conversion: proven and improving
The infrastructure issue is no different that the early days of the battery car, or indeed the early days of the conventional engine, so not truly a barrier.
Diss it all you like. Tesla had the exact same growing pains and look at you now. Leading the cheers.
Jim
Hmmm, not sure that hydrogen is solvable problem for everyday use. The roundtrip energy efficiently for hydrogen is around 40 percent, where as electric batteries is approaching 90%.
Though I do have to say early days trips in the Tesla where kind of slow at the supercharger network wasn't fully deployed at that time. Off the network it would be drive a couple hours, find RV park and charge for an hour or two and then drive another couple of hours.
I remember rolling into Bozeman MT with four miles of range left (drafted a semi to have that much), found a hotel where I could unplug a clothes dryer to charge off of. It was really shitty voltage level of 199 volts verses 240, so instead of the expected 8 hours for a fully empty battery it took almost 13 hours.
Now a days the Tesla supercharger network is pervasive, you simply tell the car where you are going on a long trip and it tells your which stations to charge at.
I don't understand how other manufactures are going to solve long distant travel for electric cars; as there is a hodgepodge of charging stations from multiple vendors. A typical new third party station might have three or four charging spots, where as tesla stations will have twelve and hey there is a totally new station another forty miles down the road with sixteen spots.
The only real drawback to electric cars is cold weather operations, but even given that Tesla is the most popular car in the Scandinavian country's.
Under cold weather conditions detriments:
Cabin heat comes out of your energy storage, In a gas car which is only 20% efficient you harvest cabin heat from what gets thrown out the tail pipe.
If the vehicle is cold soaked and needs charging, you first need to warm the battery. So a much longer and slower charge rate.
Advantages:
Car doesn't need warming up ever for basic driving, always peppy and it is not hard on the vehicle.
Also you only visit a gas station to get windshield wiper fluid..
I now get pissed whenever I have driven my pickup truck enough that I have to visit a gas station and shell out $50++ to fill the tanks.
Behaviorally mitigations:
Always plug the car in!!! A plugged in car is a happy car!!! Also when you arrive after driving a bit the battery pack is warm enough to accept a charge on arrival.
With a plugged in car, you can always prewarm the car before leaving; either with the phone app or if you have a regular commute the car will learn it and automatically do it for you.
Anyway if you are going to do something other than Tesla, get something with at least 200 miles of range.
PS. Local travel is about $20.00 for 1000 miles of driving.
Quote from: freds on October 10, 2020, 04:01:40 PM
...I don't understand how other manufactures are going to solve long distant travel for electric cars; as there is a hodgepodge of charging stations from multiple vendors...
People need to take a breath and relax. We're still in the infancy stage of EVs right now, no different than when gasoline cars first came on the scene. Imagine what it was like to try and go cross country in an automobile back in 1900 - gasoline was still a rare commodity, being sold in places like pharmacies.
One day places like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/27/dc-area-service-station-just-became-nations-first-ditch-gasoline-electric-energy-what-happens-next-is-anyones-guess/
will be as common as the local gas station. Give it time.
Quote from: richard5933 on October 10, 2020, 04:35:21 PM
People need to take a breath and relax. We're still in the infancy stage of EVs right now, no different than when gasoline cars first came on the scene. Imagine what it was like to try and go cross country in an automobile back in 1900 - gasoline was still a rare commodity, being sold in places like pharmacies.
One day places like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/27/dc-area-service-station-just-became-nations-first-ditch-gasoline-electric-energy-what-happens-next-is-anyones-guess/
will be as common as the local gas station. Give it time.
Hey Richard, I agree that people need to relax on electrical vehicles. However as great as they are, they are a long way from a five-ten minute fill up that you can do with petro vehicles.
You basically have to be home owner and be able to dispense the power (ok trickle charge) while sleeping or have a super charger nearby or somewhere in your daily commute.
There are four basic charging levels:
1. 120 volt outlet, refill rate 4 MPH. 1.8Kw (Called level one)
2. 220 volt outlet, refill rate up to 24 MPH 10Kw (called level two), note charging you see at grocery stores is generally 7KW or less.
3. 220 volt outlet greater than 40 AMP's (depends on car equipment) 36 to 48 MPH. 20KW
4. DC to DC fast charging (highly variable) can start at 300 MPH++, slows down as charge level ramps up. Fastest rate of charge is when battery is totally empty.
For DC to DC chargers Tesla has chargers that have the following charge rates 50KW (some shopping malls, haven't seen many of these units), 80KW (initial super charger), 120KW (most widely deployed) and 250KW (latest standard).
Even given the faster rates with super chargers; Tesla tends to locate their chargers with places that you can go have a bite to eat. So every 2 1/2 hours you take a 20 minute or longer break depending on the terrain ahead.
As a side note I have had my car over six years and it's only been in for something that needed fixed twice and once was for recalled air bags. A lot of electric cars are like this and that's why dealers don't want to sell them.
You're talking about what's available now, today.
Wait until tomorrow and the day after that. These things are changing so quickly that we can't even imagine how they'll be in a couple of years.
Just like the first drivers had to find a pharmacy to buy gasoline by the can, we're at that awkward phase now where the infrastructure is not built out. They haven't even decided yet what they're going to build.
Any talk about the current charging methods as definitive is moot. That will all change in a short time. If you're not ready to be a beta tester then sit back and enjoy the show. By the time you get ready they'll be two or three (or more) iterations beyond.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on October 09, 2020, 08:38:35 PM
It seems that these days the hottest new technology for medium and heavy vehicles is fuel cells. Reportedly GM and others are heavily invested in making it work. The upsurge in battery powered EVs has brought in development of motors and controls systems, reducing the development costs for fuel cells, leaving primarily the cells themselves and the high pressure tanks for storing hydrogen gas. The chief development in fuel cell technology has been the recognition that a great deal of air must be forced through and the development of means for doing that. Presently it looks like a very high speed electrically driven turbine is the most efficient. Think turbo without the exhaust scroll.
I had always hoped they could find a way to use more base fuel gasses such as hydrocarbons rather than pure hydrogen but haven't heard of much progress on that front.
Jim
Every time I go to my bus that's stored in an RV yard behind the local Home Depot here, I pass an impressive array of Bloom Energy fuel cells that Home Depot uses as a backup to mains power. Bloom's website states that their fuel cells run off natural gas which is a hydrocarbon. I wonder if they break down the methane to its constituent parts, or just use it as-is instead of pure hydrogen?
John
I see TESLA's all over the place so they must be doing something right. All of the school bus builders now offer an EV model. They may be fine for around town but not for a longer field trips to a farm. I can see it. Ok kids farmer Smith is kind enough to tow us to the nearest town at 10mph. Your parents will have been called. As for over the road buses, a small diesel generator would be great to supplement the high demand for HVAC.
what I would like to see is a primary electric with a small purpose built gas or diesel generator built in to charge the battery if you are on a long trip or not near a electric charging station . kinda like the bmw i3 with the range extender but a way better generator
cuz I live in the boonies
dave
Same as our "traditional" autos...
Nobody can accurately measure the co$t$ of the fuel, per unit of travel, or unit of ownership.
A real opportunity to game the foolish population, since everyone wants to brag about everything except how much they really pay for "fuel" ...
Remembering to go back outside to plug in the car once the hydro drops to the lower charging rate...
Yeah, the average undisciplined North American is going to put up with that...
Remove the various, and extensive government interferences... er... subsidies... er ... encouragements...
This stuff costs money, and nobody is sure what the REAL CO$T$ are...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on October 11, 2020, 02:37:07 PM
Same as our "traditional" autos...
Nobody can accurately measure the co$t$ of the fuel, per unit of travel, or unit of ownership.
A real opportunity to game the foolish population, since everyone wants to brag about everything except how much they really pay for "fuel" ...
Remembering to go back outside to plug in the car once the hydro drops to the lower charging rate...
Yeah, the average undisciplined North American is going to put up with that...
Remove the various, and extensive government interferences... er... subsidies... er ... encouragements...
This stuff costs money, and nobody is sure what the REAL CO$T$ are...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
All of the government subsidies have expired for Tesla and they are still doing gang buster sales. They did receive a government loan; but they paid it back a decade early.
Not a Tesla fan boy, but a business fan boy... Heck they will have two more massive manufacturing plants coming online next year.
Allis Chalmers built a fuel cell powered tractor in 1959.
Most of the NASA spacecraft used fuel cells.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_687671
Oh, that Allis-Chalmers tractor would be quite the nightmare to work, with those 1008 fuel cells wired together in 9 banks of 112 cells each. Remarkable project back in 1959 though.