Alternative to solar cells

Jim Blackwood · October 09, 2020, 08:38:35 PM

It seems that these days the hottest new technology for medium and heavy vehicles is fuel cells. Reportedly GM and others are heavily invested in making it work. The upsurge in battery powered EVs has brought in development of motors and controls systems, reducing the development costs for fuel cells, leaving primarily the cells themselves and the high pressure tanks for storing hydrogen gas. The chief development in fuel cell technology has been the recognition that a great deal of air must be forced through and the development of means for doing that. Presently it looks like a very high speed electrically driven turbine is the most efficient. Think turbo without the exhaust scroll.

I had always hoped they could find a way to use more base fuel gasses such as hydrocarbons rather than pure hydrogen but haven't heard of much progress on that front.

Jim

windtrader · October 09, 2020, 08:45:41 PM

Not sure what happened to fuel cells. There was earnest research funded by the auto industry and government a number of years ago. Clearly EV has the momentum now. What is the state of fuel cells today, can it cooexist with EV or due to magnitude of capital investment in either, only one will roll forward?

neoneddy · October 09, 2020, 10:23:23 PM

Maybe someone else can expand on this, but I recall a video years ago about a technology to dissolve Hydrogen gas in a solid power. It's not that the H would be cooled to a solid (not possible) but dissolved, like CO2 in soda. This would allow for high density storage at low pressure. This could then be used for a fuel cell, or a normal internal combustion engine.

I do agree, that EVs based on batteries is not sustainable, but it appears to be the emperor's new clothes.

richard5933 · October 10, 2020, 02:56:47 AM

Not sure how the title of the thread fits...

Usually when I think of fuel cells I think of vehicle propulsion. When I think of solar cells I think of charging the house batteries.

Is someone working on a way to use fuel cells to run a generator or to somehow charge batteries? If so, would it be as silent as using solar cells?

To me, a major advantage of solar cells is the silence. Fits in with camping really well. Generator? Not so much.

dtcerrato · October 10, 2020, 06:50:12 AM

Thus the reason for our measly 500 watts of panels shading our roof...

windtrader · October 10, 2020, 08:44:52 AM

Fuel cells are more like motors than batteries - generate vs storing power. There are two tank that store material that is combined that creates on demand power for whatever - car, generator..
Well, curiosity hasn't killed me yet. Quickly found this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVM5XLgpe8o

Explains that there are indeed are fuel cell cars available from Toyota and Honda, in CA of course. Stumbling block is fueling infrastructure with about 50 stations in the main population corridor between LA, SAC, SFO. Once in awhile I have seen the fuel cell badge but on smaller commercial delivery type trucks.

Funding for fuel cell stations per the talking head is 60/40, government and 40 from auto makers and fuel vendors.

Personally, I don't see it gaining traction here after all this time and the competition from EV.

Jim Blackwood · October 10, 2020, 08:46:58 AM

I expect the blower to move air through it would make some noise, and the more power you had to produce the more noise it would have to make. Anyway if they are planning to use them in large trucks they would have to produce a lot of power. I'd heard about that adsorbent thing also, something like the way they do acetylene I think. I believe that is adsorbed into acetone and lowers the pressure into the 200 psi range. Which would be good as they were talking about 10,000 psi with hydrogen.

Fuel cells and solar cells definitely can coexist. And I even think you can run fuel cells backwards which along with a compressor would make it usable for energy storage. Not sure how competitive with batteries it would be in terms of efficiency but for volume it should be better. Quicker refills too.

Jim

freds · October 10, 2020, 09:43:02 AM

The only reasonable alternative to solar cells is a generator though in order of ease of use and reliability I would rank them:

1. Diesel generator
2. Propane generator
3. Gas generator

As to hydrogen that is still a pipe dream and I don't seriously see it used in any road vehicles. There is currently a serious prototype in design; maybe construction for a ocean going cargo ship that will use it. Hydrogen requires serious infrastructure and makes sense that it could be done in major ocean ports, verses thousands of micro stations for powering cars and trucks.

Airbus is making noise about 2035; of having airliners that run on liquid hydrogen.

Back to electric vehicles if it's anything other than Tesla it's a joke/compliance vehicle.

I have been very happy Tesla owner for over six years now and have taken major trips in it, no muss no fuss!!! It's just as fast and reliable as the day I purchased it and hey I am only a couple ounces of foot pressure from releasing my inter demon at any point in time....

windtrader · October 10, 2020, 09:54:06 AM

QuoteI have been very happy Tesla owner for over six years now and have taken major trips in it, no muss no fuss!!! It's just as fast and reliable as the day I purchased it and hey I am only a couple ounces of foot pressure from releasing my inter demon at any point in time....

You live near Seattle, an area accepting and adopting new technology. Unless you live and breath it around you, some won't be convinced about how rapidly EV is expanding. I'm pretty sure at this point most, if not every major auto manufacturer offer an EV model in the USA.

Jim Blackwood · October 10, 2020, 10:06:39 AM

Quote from: freds on October 10, 2020, 09:43:02 AM
As to hydrogen that is still a pipe dream and I don't seriously see it used in any road vehicles.

They said that about battery powered vehicles up until just a few years ago too. Even when they began to gain some acceptance it wasn't until after hybrids paved the way. How often do you make cross country trips?

So the point is that it no longer such a huge task. Many parts have already been taken care of.
-motors: done and dusted
-controls: same
-fuel storage: good prospects
-energy conversion: proven and improving

The infrastructure issue is no different that the early days of the battery car, or indeed the early days of the conventional engine, so not truly a barrier.

Diss it all you like. Tesla had the exact same growing pains and look at you now. Leading the cheers.

Jim

Dave5Cs · October 10, 2020, 11:34:42 AM

When "Arnold Schwarzenegger" was Governor in California he had them coming out with Hydrogen cars and he would drive them around down by the capital then said that they were going to change all the state cars to them. When he was done with his term they kind of disappeared?. Don't remember what happened to them.

luvrbus · October 10, 2020, 11:47:52 AM

Quote from: Dave5Cs on October 10, 2020, 11:34:42 AM
When "Arnold Schwarzenegger" was Governor in California he had them coming out with Hydrogen cars and he would drive them around down by the capital then said that they were going to change all the state cars to them. When he was done with his term they kind of disappeared?. Don't remember what happened to them.

A good friend of mine owns Arnolds civilian Hummer 1, it resides in AZ now still running Hydrogen

buswarrior · October 10, 2020, 12:02:15 PM

"Refueling availability" and who is going to "pay for it" are bigger deciders, perhaps...

Electricity infrastructure already exists, and the government seems happy to buy votes, pandering with "charging stations" scattered here and there...

Follow the money, all of it... the best tech won't win, the most profitable/least liable one will...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Jim Blackwood · October 10, 2020, 12:36:57 PM

Personally I don't care. I'm perfectly happy burning dinosaurs to get around, and I'm not in the market for any new stuff. Generally these days when someone starts yapping about the New Thing, I run the other way.

But I always did think those fuel cells had potential. If only they could burn dirty fuel... Go down that road far enough and you'll be dumping garbage in the hopper, Mr Fusion style.

Jim

freds · October 10, 2020, 04:01:40 PM

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on October 10, 2020, 10:06:39 AM
They said that about battery powered vehicles up until just a few years ago too. Even when they began to gain some acceptance it wasn't until after hybrids paved the way. How often do you make cross country trips?

So the point is that it no longer such a huge task. Many parts have already been taken care of.
-motors: done and dusted
-controls: same
-fuel storage: good prospects
-energy conversion: proven and improving

The infrastructure issue is no different that the early days of the battery car, or indeed the early days of the conventional engine, so not truly a barrier.

Diss it all you like. Tesla had the exact same growing pains and look at you now. Leading the cheers.

Jim

Hmmm, not sure that hydrogen is solvable problem for everyday use. The roundtrip energy efficiently for hydrogen is around 40 percent, where as electric batteries is approaching 90%.

Though I do have to say early days trips in the Tesla where kind of slow at the supercharger network wasn't fully deployed at that time. Off the network it would be drive a couple hours, find RV park and charge for an hour or two and then drive another couple of hours.

I remember rolling into Bozeman MT with four miles of range left (drafted a semi to have that much), found a hotel where I could unplug a clothes dryer to charge off of. It was really shitty voltage level of 199 volts verses 240, so instead of the expected 8 hours for a fully empty battery it took almost 13 hours.

Now a days the Tesla supercharger network is pervasive, you simply tell the car where you are going on a long trip and it tells your which stations to charge at.

I don't understand how other manufactures are going to solve long distant travel for electric cars; as there is a hodgepodge of charging stations from multiple vendors. A typical new third party station might have three or four charging spots, where as tesla stations will have twelve and hey there is a totally new station another forty miles down the road with sixteen spots.

The only real drawback to electric cars is cold weather operations, but even given that Tesla is the most popular car in the Scandinavian country's.

Under cold weather conditions detriments:

Cabin heat comes out of your energy storage, In a gas car which is only 20% efficient you harvest cabin heat from what gets thrown out the tail pipe.
If the vehicle is cold soaked and needs charging, you first need to warm the battery. So a much longer and slower charge rate.

Advantages:

Car doesn't need warming up ever for basic driving, always peppy and it is not hard on the vehicle.
Also you only visit a gas station to get windshield wiper fluid..
I now get pissed whenever I have driven my pickup truck enough that I have to visit a gas station and shell out $50++ to fill the tanks.

Behaviorally mitigations:

Always plug the car in!!! A plugged in car is a happy car!!! Also when you arrive after driving a bit the battery pack is warm enough to accept a charge on arrival.
With a plugged in car, you can always prewarm the car before leaving; either with the phone app or if you have a regular commute the car will learn it and automatically do it for you.

Anyway if you are going to do something other than Tesla, get something with at least 200 miles of range.

PS. Local travel is about $20.00 for 1000 miles of driving.