satellite coverage

[lloyd]

A friend of mine just back back to Canada from4 months in the Yuma area. He was saying that he had Bell satellite for his TV. This might only apply to Canadians heading south for the winter. But what happened was he purchased the hockey and sports package when he was here and when go got to Yuma he had no sports package. He got the other channels on Bell but not the sports/hockey package. Has anyone run into the same problem. What satellite TV do other people from Canada us when they go south? He asked Bell and they didn't say much other than they would not give him his money back.
Lloyd

[Sean]

Technically speaking, by international treaty, Canadian carriers are not permitted to sell satellite service in the US, just as US carriers are not permitted to sell service in Canada.

Radio signals, of course, do not necessarily respect international boundaries.  Broadcast satellite transponders use directional antennas to focus the energy into the allowable "footprint" of the carrier's coverage territory, but there is quite a bit of spillover of the signal across borders.  Almost everyone "looks the other way" when it comes to mobile subscribers using their legally acquired equipment to receive the spillover signal once across the border, even though it is technically illegal to do so.

For example, we continue to use our DirecTV equipment when in Mexico, but the footprint has a sharp cutoff, and our signal drops out perhaps 200km from the border, sometimes less.  You will see, however, many US expats living in Mexico (either in RVs, or in fixed dwellings) further south than that using larger aperture dishes, some up to 2 meters across, to continue to receive their US DBS subscriptions south of the border.

The vagaries of satellite antenna aiming make it much harder for satellites serving the Canadian market to exclude the signal from most of the US.  Of course, the further south one travels, the lower the signal strength will be.  As a consequence, myriad Canadian snowbirds have little or no trouble receiving their TV signals in the US.  This effect is somewhat enhanced by the fact that many Canadian-spec dishes are larger aperture than US dishes to begin with, to make up for the additional attenuation due to the extra distance from the bird as well as the atmospheric effects due to the shallower angle.

I'm not Canadian, so can not comment on which Canadian services work the best in the southern US, but I have heard that StarChoice does well here.

Your friend has no recourse against Canadian Bell for not receiving part of his signal in Yuma, since he was not entitled to receive any signal there at all.

Incidentally, different channels are sent over different transponders (and, in some cases, different birds altogether), and so it is not uncommon, in fringe signal areas, to receive some channels fine, and others not at all.

HTH.

-Sean
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Hi Lloyd,

Sean is right on about the coverage area and not being able to sell providers over the borders.

The reason your friend was able to pick up bell in the US is because all satellite TV birds are in parallel with the equator.

This means that Canada has to look farther to the horizon to see the bird. Where folks in Florida have to almost look straight up

to the sky to see the birds. Bell and Express u view have an overlap on the US to be able to cover Canadadian markets.

The sports pkg with bell is a very small pin spot beam for certain markets in Canada and that is why he lost it here in AZ.

Hope this helps
Nick-

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Hi Lloyd,

This site will give you a good idea how the birds are lined up with the equator. There is virtually no other line of refrence

to line satellites up to besides the equator. This is a live/realtime locater of all sats around our earth. The TV sats are on the

outer ban or the farthest out from earth. [35,000 mi's] The small window that opens up will give you a drop down tab where

you can pick certain sats to display their orbits.  Run your mouse over the screen to move the 3D view.

http://science.nasa.gov/Realtime/jtrack/3d/JTrack3D.html

Nick-

[prevost82]

Hi Lloyd ... tell your friend to dump Bell ExpressVu and get Starchoice, they are RV friendly, they even give you a dish for your RV free. Starchoice doesn't care where you are parked, Canada, US or Mexico, where Bell will cut you off your service if they find out you are in the US, until you get back into Canada. Starchoice also works (all channels) all the way down to the south end of Mexico. I switch after the first yr I went south and couldn't get 1/2 the channels.

Ron

[Sean]

... There is virtually no other line of refrence
to line satellites up to besides the equator. ... The TV sats are on the
outer ban or the farthest out from earth. [35,000 mi's]

and

This means that Canada has to look farther to the horizon to see the bird. Where folks in Florida have to almost look straight up

A few quick corrections are in order...

First, all geostationary satellites, by definition, orbit directly above the equator.  Geostationary means that the satellite, as viewed from the earth, appears to be stationary or motionless in the sky.  This is what allows you to point a fixed dish once, and not have to adjust it again.  Using anything other than a geostationary bird with a parabolic ("dish") antenna requires motorized tracking systems.

Other kinds of satellites generally do not orbit above the equator.  The vast majority of satellites in orbit are not geostationary.  Examples include the GPS satellite constellation, Iridium and Globalstar satellite phone networks, orbiting telescopes (the kind pointing out and also the kind pointing in), the ISS, the space shuttle, astronomical and solar observatories, etc. etc.

The orbital altitude of a geostationary satellite is 22,240 statute miles (not 35,000, although that's close to the altitude expressed in the metric system of 35,786 kilometers).  And, while they are certainly among the farthest artificial earth satellites, they are not the absolute farthest.

Note also that the term "geosynchronous" is sometimes used when referring to geostationary satellites, but this is not precisely correct, since there are geosynchronous satellites that have inclined orbits (the ground track is thus a straight longitudinal line segment, with length dependent on degree of inclination).  All geostationary orbits are also geosynchronous, but not all geosynchronous orbits are geostationary.

The elevation of the dish needed to communicate with a geostationary satellite depends not only on the latitude of the dish, but also on the longitude of the dish relative to the longitude of the satellite.  For the main DirecTV bird at 101 west, the elevation required from Miami, Florida is 52° (hardly "straight up"), whereas the elevation to the same bird from Toronto, Ontario is 35° -- a difference of only 17°.

... Starchoice doesn't care where you are parked, Canada, US or Mexico, ... Starchoice also works (all channels) all the way down to the south end of Mexico.

Again, just to be precisely clear:  StarChoice might not ask you where you are going, and, at some level, they may not "care" as Ron writes.  But, legally, they can not allow you to order and consume the service from anywhere but Canada.  If you make a case that you are in the US (or Mexico) and you are having a problem, they *can* shut you off.  More importantly, if they are asked to by the US, they MUST shut you off.  Highly unlikely, I agree, but not impossible.  Again, you have no recourse if you buy a Canadian service and it simply stops working in the US.

Your alternatives are to either subscribe to US service, or live with the limitations of Canadian service in US territory.  StarChoice may work fine here right at the moment, but you can't be guaranteed that it will always be so.  Keep that in mind when signing any long-term contract.

-Sean
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Sean,

Sorry,  I am by far, not anything close to a scientist or the like.

I'm Just giving laymans terms as it was taught to me by KVH's Global training instructor [Capt. Dave Walker] as to how your dish looks to the sky

so the genreal public can understand. I just know enough to be dangerous to myself...

Regards
Nick-

[WEC4104]

Also, Bell ExpressVu (BEV) broadcasts from two different satellites.  The satellite called Nimiq2 is at 82.0 W. longitude, and Nimiq1 is at 91.0 W. Longitude.  Could be your friend was able to pick up one, but not both.

[Sean]

...  I am by far, not anything close to a scientist or the like.

No problem, Nick.  I just wanted to chime in with some of the facts, for anyone who might actually be following along (I think we're pretty far afield now from the original poster's question).  As you know, this stuff gets archived and people dig it up months or years later.

Are you getting certified for the KVH marine equipment, too, or just the RV stuff?

-Sean
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com

[prevost82]

Well Sean ... I don't know all the legalities about a Canadian service receiving a TV sat signal in US or Mexico. But when all this started a couple of years ago with Bell cutting their customers off, Bell cited it was Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) but an RV'er emailed CRTC and they said they were not making Bell cut their customers off, this was discussed on RV.net and the email was posted there from the CRTC. Bell is partly owned by a US sat company, Direct TV or iDirect.

When I switched from Bell to Starchoice, I told them I was going to Mexico and I needed a sat dish for the RV and they said they would send me a .98M dish instead of a .75M dish ... they said it would work better in Mexico, I also asked if I could get support when in the US and Mexico and they said "No Problem".

So like I said I don't know all the legalities but this seem to be a non issue with Starchoice, at best it's a gray area being a Canadian citizen buying a Canadian service and the signal happen to go all the way down to the south end of Mexico and I can receive it. I'm sure in your travels in the US and Mexico that you've seen many Canadians using Starchoice.

Ron

[Sean]

...
So like I said I don't know all the legalities but this seem to be a non issue with Starchoice, at best it's a gray area being a Canadian citizen buying a Canadian service and the signal happen to go all the way down to the south end of Mexico and I can receive it.

If you read through the StarChoice contracts and literature, you will notice they are very, very careful to keep out of writing any information about the availability of the signal outside of Canada.  If you read between the lines, they sort of imply that you will get signal anywhere you travel, but they won't come out and say it explicitly.

That's what I meant by "looking the other way."  I can assure you that it is not a gray area at all -- under international law, it is patently illegal for them to sell the signal in the US.  Unless and until the US gets all up in their grill, though, they are not going to kill the golden goose.  They know damn well that their customers are buying the service to use it south of the border, and they aren't going to tell them not to unless someone makes a stink.

The point I am making is that it is very definitely against the law, and the day *may* come (or may not) when they have to do something about it.  If that day comes, StarChoice customers will have no recourse to say "but you said I would receive my signal in Albuquerque" or whatever.

FWIW, the FCC here in the US is way more forceful with US carriers about limiting the signal to the US footprint.  That's why DirecTV and Dish drop out so sharply just a short distance from the borders.

I'm sure in your travels in the US and Mexico that you've seen many Canadians using Starchoice.

Yes, which is why I suggested StarChoice in the fifth paragraph of my original reply.  Note that I am not telling people not to do this -- if I was Canadian, I'd do it myself.  I just want folks to understand that, while this will save them money (over, for example, subscribing additionally to DirecTV while in the states), they technically have no legal rights to do so, and so should be prepared for the possibility that the service will not work in some locations.  Also, technically, they can be forced to forfeit their satellite equipment under administrative forfeiture guidelines of the CFRs, since they are operating unlicensed and/or non-type-accepted radio equipment illegally in the US.

Just like truckers with illegal 100-watt amplifiers on their CB rigs (limited, by US federal law, to four watts), the chances that they will ever be caught and subjected to such forfeiture is virtually nil.  But still it IS possible, however unlikely.  Remember that Canadian law, even if it intended to permit this use, carries no weight while in the US.

FWIW and YMMV, etc. etc.

-Sean

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

...  I am by far, not anything close to a scientist or the like.

No problem, Nick.  I just wanted to chime in with some of the facts, for anyone who might actually be following along (I think we're pretty far afield now from the original poster's question).  As you know, this stuff gets archived and people dig it up months or years later.

Are you getting certified for the KVH marine equipment, too, or just the RV stuff?

-Sean
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com

Hi Sean,

I'm certified for RV only for now, and the marine class was full when I signed up fpr RV so I'm scheduled for a fall class in R.I.
Nick-

[Len Silva]

I find it hard to understand how anyone can be held liable for RECEIVING any kind of signal as long as you don't retransmit it or use it for profit.  Perhaps there are some eavesdropping laws that might apply.  The trucker with the linear amp is a different story, there are all kinds of rules and laws regarding transmission of a signal.  I think it must be up to the transmitting entity to prevent you from receiving their signal by whatever means.

[luvrbus]

I find that hard to believe too I know some of you guys can remember before TV got popular with preachers they would go to Mexico and send out their message XERF I think was the station 50,000 watts of power and Oral Roberts would sell you a handkerchief for a buck 

[Stan]

The signals from Direct TV and Dish network don't stop at the Canadian border. My first RV satellite system was registered to my Yuma address and I used it 500 miles North of the 49th parallel. I notice all the US registered RVs that come into Canada using a dish put it up and use it, possibly all the way to Alaska.

As far as the US/Canada agreement on restricting access to satellite transmissions, it is all based on objections by advertisers who lose revenue if you watch a foreign broadcast station. My home cable system uses the program schedule of Dish Network but all the commercials are stripped out and replaced by Canadian commercials.

As to traveling with an RV and receiving a satellite signal, until they make possession of the receiver illegal there is not much the officials can do if you turn it on and pick a signal out of the air. Starchoice will not sell access to their system to a non Canadian but they have no control over where a legal owner is sitting when they turn it on.