8V71 removal from MC-5A

[Fredward]

A question for you guys who have "been there; done that"!
Everybody (including the manual) says I have to pull the engine to change the clutch (or put in an auto depending on my mood). The manual shows how to build a dolly to use for sliding the engine out.

First off, do I need to slide the engine back a few inches to get the clutch out or totally remove the engine. (Looks to me like I could change the clutch without touching the engine).

Second, assuming the answer is the engine has to come out; could I use my skid steer with long pallet forks? I expect some fabrication would be required to adapt the forks for the application but my skid has 1800 lb capacity; would that work?

Thanks

[TrevorH]

I would think that an 1800 lb capacity would not be enough.

[TomC]

The 8V-71 weighs 2,450lbs, plus 250lbs for the clutch, plus about 550lbs for the transmission- so I think 1,800lb lifting would not do for the 3,250lbs of the engine/clutch/transmission.  Believe me when I say this- it may look like you can change the clutch in place, but don't!  All of the components are very heavy with the chance of them falling on top of you.  There's a really good reason MCI says to pull the power train and even shows how to build the dolly to do it.  It will be 100 times easier to do work on the power train once out of the bus in the open.  Then you might decide to change it to a MT644 Allison automatic instead of fooling with the manual anymore.  Believe me when I say it will be the best decision you'll make with the biggest smile quotient.  Good Luck, TomC

[Ncbob]

Fred, when I asked my mechanic to replace the clutch in my engine he recommended pulling the engine.
Not only was he able to install my Jakes but he found some minor problems that wouldn't have come to light otherwise.  He used a 6000 lb forklift. In splitting the transmission off the engine he found that the input shaft was scored to the point where it needed replacement. It was done without completely disassembling the tranny. He also found that the air line for the clutch assist was compromised and replaced that.

It might sound like the long way to go to pull the engine just for a clutch...but I believe that you'll be glad you did in the long run as many of the smaller maintenance items can be attended to pretty much at your leisure.

Hope all works out well.

Bob

[Busted Knuckle]

Fred,
Back in the day when i weren't so smart.......

Oh shoot I still ain't that smart! But I have larned a thin er 2. I have never done it on a 5 or anything older than a 9 for that fact! We used to change clutches by unbolting clutch bell housing and moving trans forward leaving it supported by a floor jack (with custom fabricated lift pad for that project) and also suspending it from above with a cable from a come along down thru the access hole in the floor. It was a major PIA! NOT TO MENTION DEADLY DANGEROUS! It was very time consuming & the trans was always in the way! Then there was the day that for some unknown reason (except maybe we shouldn't be doing it that way in the first place!) while we were away from the bus (lunch or parts chasing I don't remember) the trans decided to take a break too! When we came back we found a puddle of gear lube coming out from under the bus and when I looked to see where it came from, I almost went into shock! There was the trans laying on the floor and the case split wide open from where it had fallen and hit the concrete floor! It wasn't the trans being busted that sent chills down my spine, but the thought of what if that'd been me or Woody that trans landed on! Well when I was at a buddies shop picking up a used trans he asked what had happened to the busted one (I had it in the back of the trk in case he wanted a core! LOL!). When I told him, he told me how much simpler it is to just slide the whole engine and trans cradle out, then separate them, then replace the clutch, re assemble and slide it all back in at once. Not to mention much safer, and it gives you the chance to kneel into the engine bay and clean, inspect, and repair things while it's empty! Well the next one we did it that way, and I must say it's so much easier, and convenient that I'll always pull the eng/trans combo stick/auto for anything requiring it. It does take near as much time as rigging and wrestling the trans alone! Not to mention the time I was on a trip and Woody & Robert thought they'd be smart and put a 9 on ramps and drop a bad 740 and change it out. They had the trans out laying on the ground and had jacked up the bus and put blocks of wood on top of the ramps until the bus was about hitting the rafters in the shop and still didn't have the needed clearance to slide the trans out from under the bus! talk about furious when I came home and had to spent an entire day unblocking and moving the bus inches at a time while sliding the trans inches at a time until I had it repositioned enough to get the rear of the bus between 2 rafters to raise it up 4 more inches and just barely had clearance to slide trans out! But then what to do about replacement trans? If we slid it in flat on the floor we still had to raise it up enough to get trans jack under it (they broke the floor jack we used to use for manuals in the process of creating this fine mess so I had to go buy a heavy duty trans jack to use 1 time and resell!) So in the long run the eng. came out anyway to finish the job! What should've and could've been a one day (1 & 1/2 most) job took a week!
Just my observation but pulling them as a combo is the only right way to do any major job like that! FWIW  BK  

[buswarrior]

The skid steer's load centre for that 1800 lbs will be too close to the backrest, the engine package is way too far out for that machine to lift it.

Back before I paid proper attention, the bus was up on the hoist, and the mechanics split it to work on it.

The way bus drivers burn out clutches, I can't believe that the engine would have to be pulled to do the clutch. The down time would have put a stop to the abuse. There must be an easier way. driveshaft out, support the tranny and pull it forwards perhaps?

Where's the veterans with the weathered looks?

edit...never mind, he's already typing...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Stan]

Two things to consider.  On a MC-5 there is no room to move the transmission forward. It is right up against the rear axle banjo. To move the engine to the rear, you have to disconnect everything, whether you are moving it two inches or two feet. Once it is all loose, you might as well take it all the way out. It will take less time to do it with it out, and certainly much easier and safer.

This is also a good time to check the engine rails for cracks as well as clean up and check the rear bulkhead.

[Fredward]

Well I guess I better get some steel and get the directions out and start building the MCI recommended engine removal dolly. Have any of you built one? Those will be some serious casters to hold up 3500 pounds of iron. Any other ideas for sliding the engine out?
Fred

[Sammy]

Pull the package, easier than you think to get it out.
Definitely use the engine dolly too. Try to borrow a dolly from a local bus garage.
It's usually not used on a daily basis, maybe they'll loan it or rent it to you.
Good luck. 

[Brian Diehl]

Well I guess I better get some steel and get the directions out and start building the MCI recommended engine removal dolly. Have any of you built one? Those will be some serious casters to hold up 3500 pounds of iron. Any other ideas for sliding the engine out?
Fred

$7.50 caster wheels from Northern Tools is all you need.  Works great on concrete.

[mikelutestanski]

Hello;    Pulling the engine/tranny/cradle assy is the best way to go if you have a flat floor but even that is not required if you can get some steel plates to put under the bus for the cradle wheels to run on.   Use steel wheels of at least 1000lb capacity each wheel.. You are pulling at least 3350 lbs   + water in engine and oil.   
    Have pulled the drivetrain from my 72 mci 7     3 times .  The first time is the hardest because you need to get all those bolts,nuts hoses, wires etc apart..    Dont forget the main wire to the starter that is fastened on the pass side behind the cradle.  Also  shut the heater valves off before pulling those hoses. The alternator wires are tricky because the whole wire binding post may turn so be careful when you get to that. 
     one day to get everything loose and about an hour to pull the whole assy.      You need to pay attention to the way the motor is on the cradle. the center of balance is farther toward the rear than one would think so be careful..    Pay attention to blocking the coach before you go under.. I removed one tag wheel to slide under to get at the driveshaft but that is not required. (I pulled the flange bolts off on the tranny side..)  The 5 is a little different so your procedures may be modified..    Please be careful because the 3400 lb block of steel will go where it wants.; and you do not want to be in the way or try to stop it if it does get away..
     The part about inspecting the steel under the cradle is very valid. We replaced all the steel in the lattice work with 1" square stock as every pieces was cracked or loose.
     Good Luck and Happy bussin    mike

[mikelutestanski]

Hello     A Few pix of the operation   The cradle you see in these pictures came from the local greyhound garage in Syracuse NY..  the garage is long gone but I knew the mechanic who retrieved it from the scrap bin..   hes gone too.. 
Alot of knowledge ..Good friend   
     Happy Bussin         mike
PS   I am learning that you can edit these posts   changed a pix as it was a duplicate and added  another pix.
     The driveway was not level so we used steel plates under the dolly to pull the assembly out of the bus and into the garage. Used a walkie fork truck to pull as it was slightly uphill.        mike

[mikelutestanski]

hello  more pix     Mike

[gomer]

pictures are worth a thousnad words.  That look so easy that way.  I have a friend,believe it or not, that jacks up the cradle after unhooking everything because he don't have the room to pull it out and he pulls the coach forward,  same results
gomer

[mikelutestanski]

Helllo       more pix this time a view of a different cradle/dolly and a different engine. I made a set of  adapter plates for each engine . THe adaptor plates were clamped to the cradle.  That way I can use one dolly for different engines.  Usually try to get an adaptor under the motor mounts and one under or near the front supports.
       The motor in the pix is an L10 mechanical with a B400R tranny.  We used the same dolly with different adaptors for the 8V71/740 setup to remove from the bus.
        FWIW   
                  Happy bussin    Mike