bio

[tucsontattoo]

do i have to do anything to run bio diesel in my 8v71?

                        tucson

[WVObus]

Replace all rubber hoses and seals that will come in contact with BD.  Learn to brew the BD and design your system to run it.

The 8v71 is an easy conversion to do if done right, but painful if not done right.

[tucsontattoo]

what about the comerical bio diesel availabale at the pump in some places? Can i run it do i need to change things before i do.

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Hi TT,

Here is the link from board help on BIO

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3069.0

Good Luck
Nick-

[tucsontattoo]

ya Nick, i did a search for bio before i posted this question. Found no mention of the bio for sale at the pump in some places now.  Would like to try it but no sure if it is safe without some conversion to the engine or not.
   thanks for the responce though, read all that stuff first, not much help :'

[WVObus]

I see no reason not to use the commercial pump bio if ya just want to try it out, but don't expect to save money buying it.  The real savings is doin' it yourself.

Have you looked into waste veggie oil? Simple to do and no internal engine changes to make.  My cost runs .18 cents per gallon.

John F.

[mci8]

We just got back from a 3200 mile trip in our bus burning 70% bio for about half of the trip..It didn't seem to affect it in any way other then the exhausts smell!! We have the 8v71 engine turned to about 350 hp....Bio diesel is supposed to be a direct replacement for regular diesel without any mods to the engine. We run 80% to 100% (it depends how cold it is. If its to cold it will gel up) bio in all our farm equipment. So yes I would say you can run bio in your bus!! Although bio at the pumps is actually more expensive the regularly diesel.. We have a friend that makes all of our out of waste oils for about 1.50 a gallon so it is alot cheaper to run for us..

[tekebird]

Bio will attack anything rubber, seals, gaskets, Lines.

Bio also begins to cloud at 60 degrees,

oh it also will remove varnish from regular diesle, so you should clean your tanks too.

due to the high cloud temps It is suggested that you have a tank heater as well as a filter unit that has a preheater

The Company that bought my 04 is converting it to do B100 and I am overseeing all work done on it so I am surew I will learn more..........From what I have read already I suggested not doing it considering their planned usage

[mci8]

Im not sure that were talking about the same thing tekebird! Bio diesel does not gel or cloud up until about 35 degrease! All this winter running 50% bio in all our equipment we had no trouble at all even to -15 a couple days!! It will eat at seals on vehicle's pre-1995 after that the rubber is supposed to be compatible with it. Maybe im missing something but I have never heard of a tank heater for bio diesel. Now straight veggie oil is a totally different story!! We have been using bio in over ten different engines for the last year or so without any problems at all.
Heres some Biodiesel facts I found.

Biodiesel facts
used cooking oil
The raw material -- used cooking oil.
Biodiesel is much cleaner than fossil-fuel diesel ("dinodiesel"). It can be used in any diesel engine with no need for modifications -- in fact diesel engines run better and last longer with biodiesel. And it can easily be made from a common waste product -- used cooking oil.

    * Biodiesel fuel burns up to 75% cleaner than conventional diesel fuel made from fossil fuels
    * Biodiesel substantially reduces unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and particulate matter in exhaust fumes
    * Sulphur dioxide emissions are eliminated (biodiesel contains no sulphur)
    * Biodiesel is plant-based and adds no CO2 to the atmosphere
    * The ozone-forming potential of biodiesel emissions is nearly 50% less than conventional diesel fuel
    * Nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions may increase or decrease but can be reduced to well below conventional diesel fuel levels by adjusting engine timing and other means
    * Biodiesel exhaust is not offensive and doesn't cause eye irritation (it smells like French fries!)
    * Biodiesel is environmentally friendly: it is renewable, "more biodegradable than sugar and less toxic than table salt" (US National Biodiesel Board)
    * Biodiesel can be used in any diesel engine
    * Fuel economy is the same as conventional diesel fuel
    * Biodiesel is a much better lubricant than conventional diesel fuel and extends engine life -- a German truck won an entry in the Guinness Book of Records by travelling more than 1.25 million km (780,000 miles) on biodiesel with its original engine
    * Biodiesel has a high cetane rating, which improves engine performance: 20% biodiesel added to conventional diesel fuel improves the cetane rating 3 points, making it a Premium fuel
    * Biodiesel can be mixed with ordinary petroleum diesel fuel in any proportion, with no need for a mixing additive.
    * Even a small amount of biodiesel means cleaner emissions and better engine lubrication: 1% biodiesel will increase lubricity by 65%
    * Biodiesel can be produced from any fat or vegetable oil, including waste cooking oil.

See the National Biodiesel Board's complete evaluation of biodiesel emissions and potential health effects, in accordance with the most stringent emissions testing protocols ever required by the US EPA (Acrobat file, 40 kb):
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/emissions.pdf

Summary:

    * The overall ozone (smog) forming potential of biodiesel is almost 50% less than diesel fuel.
    * Sulfur emissions are eliminated.
    * Substantial reductions of unburned hydrocarbons (-93%), carbon monoxide (-50%), and particulate matter (-30%).
    * Biodiesel NOx emissions can be efficiently eliminated as a concern.
    * Substantial reductions of cancer-causing PAH (-80%) and nitrited PAH compounds (-90%).

[Gary '79 5C]

My jury is out as to the scientific details, But I appreciate the infor you bring to the table MCI*.
I tend to think like TekeBird here, as I have read and heard of the deterioration the BIO does to hoses etc. I notice a lower MPG running the greenish diesel. I have two diesel cars, ( average 35K /yr) plus the bus. MercedesShop site indicates great caution due to the hose problem. Many are running home brew as well. I really do not see the return in the home brew as my spare time is nil and I can't justify all the effort.
My 0.02.
Leaving on my own 1,200 mile bus trip.
Have a great day..
Gary

[tekebird]

All My info came right from the Mules Mouth. ( A company that sells Bio Equipment and Installs the stuff.)  I have found several places on the web stating that Bio begins to cloud at 60 degrees with some variation depending on several common factors. the more Bio the higher this temp is.

Just relaying what I learned from Bio Professionals.......I do not doubt all the stats other than the effiiiciency, My readings show a decreased efficiency on Bio

[mci8]

If your worried about it clouding up there are lots of additives that will take the clouding point way down..Like I said before we have not had any problem with clouding at all even in cold temps..You may need an anti gelling agent if you live where it gets colder then here in Ohio..Here is a very informative link that seems to be very accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodeisel As of 2006, there are a very limited number of products that will significantly lower the gel point of straight biodiesel. One such product, Wintron XC30, has been shown to reduce the gel point of pure biodiesel fuels. Wintron XC30 is a blend of styrene copolymer esters in a toluene base.
I would like to hear from anyone on this board who has actually run bio in their bus or any vehicle for that matter!! Like I said before we have run bio in all our equipment for about a year now without any problem. if it will do any damage to pre 1995 rubber or not is yet to be seen!! If it does its not a big deal Ill pull it in the shop and fix it!!! Also the people that sell the bio making stuff are trying to protect their own butts by making under statments!!!

Happy bio busin to all!!
Blake


Me pumping biodiesel int the bus on our trip!!!

[tucsontattoo]

Thanks for the help folks. Just got home from San Deigo (state beach}. our favorite haunt. The reason I posted this question is we keep hearing rumors that California ni going to push fule prices of non-renewabel source fules to about 5.00 a gallon in an effort to clean up their air.Thats the story and their sticken to it anyway. this will not effect the price of bio fuels so the rumor goes. Think I'll just start going to mexico insted in an effort to help them. *&$# California.

                                Thanks for the  feed back      Tucson

[tucsontattoo]

one other question. if i replace all rubber hoses and seals, what would i replace them with

[Gary '79 5C]

I am reading an article from the publisher of Next Truck Mag. and he supports the use of Bio. However, he indicates the following:
Check engine manufacturers standards, DD allows only B5 blends.
Use only BQ-9000 certified fuels Not all fuels out there have the same quality.
Expect to change filters more frequently, Bio contains a solvent which releases deposits from within tanks.
Cold Temps create wax crystals, more filter changes.
Perform Oil Analysis & adjust oil change frequency, Bio will accumulate in the crankcase, thinning the oil. Does not evaporate as reg fuel from within the crankcase.
It will lubricate the injectors and is lower in sulfur, which will help the oil last longer.

This great, as I need to save the environment and kill the $15,000 engine rebuild in doing so....
The oil will last longer and you need not add any, as the fuel will replace oil in the crankcase....
Additional filters changes, more frequent oil changes.
I for one will keep to the standard fuel as long as possible, until a better solution is developed, and a Better Solution will come along out necessity if the current Bio Diesel is not a hit. We should not legislate ( tax ) a poor solution into everyday use.

Gary