Would you do a 4104 today ?

[Dave Silva]

My brother showed me his 04 around 1999 and i have been hooked ever since. 

But for those of you who have had them for a while,  would you start from scratch now?

There seems to be some incredible deals to be had as people age out of them.   

I've owned 50 cars, wrenched on everything,  Even spent some time as a Coast Guard boat engineer with the  venerable 6-53.   SO i have no doubt i could get smart on another machine and do most of my own stunts.

But, the goal is to travel in reliable comfort,  not take on another car hobby.

Is that realistic  after 70 years?    When i first started looking at them there were still a bunch that were 100% original, wet filters, no spring brake, very few had upgraded engines and transmissions.

Now I assume just about everyone out there had an overhaul in the 80's or 90s.

The conventional wisdom on the BNO forum back then was that a 6V92 and Allison was bad idea.     But now that seems to be somewhat common.

I have no interest in that.    I want the whole 4104 experience.

I hope this post inspires some discussion.  I hope my marriage can tolerate my obsession.

[Glennman]

I've had 6 buses in my day, and my current love is my 2002 MCI D4500. However, if I was in the market for a smaller, older vintage bus, it would be the 4104. I bought one once for $500 that needed a new clutch and it was 450 miles from home. I saw it once, paid storage fees for 2 years, then let it go to the owner of the storage place. That guy seemed pretty happy to inherit it at the time. I've kicked myself ever since. That was 25 years ago. I think they are fun to drive and they look cool too. If the right deal came along, I would seriously consider it as a project since my current bus is mostly finished. But you said you weren't necessarily wanting another "car" project. I think that if you concentrated on the mechanical end first, then do the interior, you could have a fine machine that you could truly enjoy.

[luvrbus]

I thought about buying a 4104 and installing a 350 hp DDEC 6l-71 and a Allision but I would have needed to change the rear axle so I passed on it, some times I regret not doing it. I have seen 2-4104's with the series 50 4 stroke engines 350 hp with the electronic Allisions from the RTS buses stuff in the engine compartment, but nothing sounds as good as a DDEC 6L-71   

[Dave Silva]

But you said you weren't necessarily wanting another "car" project. I think that if you concentrated on the mechanical end first, then do the interior, you could have a fine machine that you could truly enjoy.

I'm not talking about doing a conversion myself. THere are few nicely done coaches out there for under $20K.   Of course I'd have a lot to do at first.   But in general, i don't want a project.

[dtcerrato]

I'm not talking about doing a conversion myself. THere are few nicely done coaches out there for under $20K.   Of course I'd have a lot to do at first.   But in general, i don't want a project.

We've owned only one bus in our life. The purchase was in 1979. It was and still is our 1953 4104-129 it was bought as an in service charter bus after retiring from Pacific Greyhound Lines. We have performed the entire conversion of it and have also performed a couple major remodels on it thru the decades. It has been all over the N American continent including Canada & Alaska four times. By today's standards it is a small bus with great bones. Yes we still run wet air cleaners, no spring brakes, oem drive train, etc. We admire the passion you verse for the 4104. Do I sound bias? Certainly! Go for it. 

[Dave Silva]

 I've seen your comments on many posts across  multiple  forums.

I was hoping I'd hear from you.  so i could ask specific questions,  :-)

Any major overhauls?   Major break downs?   How many miles a year?  Other than regular fluid checks, how often do you get your hands dirty?    How much is original?

[dtcerrato]

Major overhaul:
2016 In-frame rebuild. Replaced cylinder head, main & rod bearings, piston & liners. Rebuilt blower.
2019 Clutch & associated parts completely rebuilt.
Major Breakdowns:
1989 fractured/failed one rear cast aluminum suspension support. Replaced both rear supports with later improved stamped steel supports.
2016 catastrophic blower failure.
2024 cylinder head bridge support rod pops out of head sending massive amounts of coolant into engine crankcase. Miraculously recovery was cheap with hidden collateral engine damage to soon appear afterwards.
2024 crankshaft damper hub breaks - contributed to above 2024 breakdown. Replaced both dampers & dampers hub.
2025 Flywheel comes loose - 5 of six sheared flywheel to crank bolts. Recovery was cheap with just bolt replacement, no collateral damage. Contributed to initial 2024 breakdown.
Other smaller breakdowns include multiple tire blowouts & air bellows failures over the decades.
Annual miles:
Early on 5 to 10K. Since 2016 Alaska round trips 12 to 15K.
Hands get bus dirty mostly during above mentions and annual chassis greasing among other things.
We'll guess at 70 to 80% original except for the conversion interior including belly bays. 10% original. Original HVAC heat intact. Oem A/C removed at purchase.
IMHO Careful when you say: "But in general, I don't want a project."
AFAIC any antique or vintage bus if run regularly is a project. HTH

[Dave Silva]

"IMHO Careful when you say: "But in general, I don't want a project."
AFAIC any antique or vintage bus if run regularly is a project. HTH"

I may be wildly misguided but looking at everything  out there, with a budget of $20K to enter and $10 K more for backup, i think a 4104 is less likely to consume all of my time and money than anything else i might find at that price point.     My other direction is a heavily depreciated 90's class A, something in the Monaco/Beaver zone.

I don't want romance to affect my decision but nothing is as cool as that bus.

[dtcerrato]

It sounds like you surely have the passion to own a bus. There's no comparison between commercial buses and production RVs. The 20 year commercial service life that was designed into our old buses is testament to how over engineered they were still on the road 80 years later. The overhaul and breakdowns I mentioned are far from a complaint as our 04 has been on average over 90+% dependable in the almost half century that we've owned it. Even though it was purchased in it's 26th year since manufactured. Great bones is an understatement. Good luck on your venture & do keep us posted.

[luvrbus]

There is really nothing wrong with the higher end Class A motor homes like the Country Coach,Foretravel and few others, the entry levels are junk.I been a bus owner since the 60's and loved everything about my Country Coach Magna except all the stupid electronics 1 remote controlled everything on it lol took me two years to figure out how to the TV on.I am looking at buying another but only 36 ft and older model without all the electronic gadget's I can pull a dump valve by hand, I do want slides again but only 2 this time       

[muldoonman]

There is really nothing with the higher end Class A motor homes like the Country Coach,Fortravel and few others, the entry levels are junk.I been a bus owner since the 60's and loved everything about my Country Coach Magna except all the stupid electronics 1 remote controlled everything on it lol took me two years to figure out how to the TV on.I am looking at buying another but only 36 ft and older model without all the electronic gadget's I can pull a dump valve by hand, I do want slides again but only 2 this time     

Does your Country Coach have the dreaded DEF system?

[windtrader]

Glad to find someone that supports the concept of doing some research ahead of getting emotionally attached and writing a check.

If you are realistic goal is to make it road trip worthy, it will be a project, do not believe otherwise.  You have lots of mechanical experience so you know how much time and effort can be spent getting an ancient vehicle baselined and into good running order. There are reports of parts like seals and other essential and critical parts simply no longer available. That makes it a project to just find parts, they are around in the secondary market and pop up, hit and miss on eBay, etc. A key difference in sourcing parts for a 75 year old bus is the need and demand are so low there are virtually no aftermarket makers or suppliers. Some ancient automobiles do have enough fans where demand allows parts to be feasibly made and marketed. No such thing for old a bus.

Finding service for any old two stroke engine is increasingly difficult and likely a DIY option. You might be lucky with a reputable 2 stroke mechanic in your area but this is a gift, not an expectation. I don't know the specifics but it is likely 20 years, a generation, of time since heavy duty diesel engine mechanics learned to work on these and far fewer with enough practical shop experience.

It comes down to time and money and passion. Look in the mirror and peer deep into that face to decide if you have these in sufficient supply to take one on. Anyone making odds on someone buying a 4104 that needs a fair amount of work to be trip worthy in 3 years would be glad to take all bets. Sadly, when you scan the antique bus landscape, there are very few running happily down the road littered with the rusting skeletons everywhere.

Last thought. If you genuinely expect to use this for roadtripping on a regular and reliable basis, flush and run.

Last last comment - I've had my 76 MC8 for 8 years now and run it year round and it is as reliable as one can expect. Still, stuff is not always right and am chasing some sort of problem. Nothing has kept me off the road but I can say, just keeping it in good running order takes more time and money than I care to invest as my passion is road tripping and boondocking, not getting greasy or spending time wrenching on the bus. And that is the mechanical side. The house systems often needs something - it is a rolling house with complete mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems. Mine is a rolling power plant too - fully powered by solar, electronics, lithium batteries, and backup generator. Any one component is fine but the totality means there is always work going something. Good luck, make a thorough, informed, and emotionally detached decision and you will be happy in the end.

[DoubleEagle]

I'm not talking about doing a conversion myself. THere are few nicely done coaches out there for under $20K.   Of course I'd have a lot to do at first.   But in general, i don't want a project.

We understand that you don't want to do the conversion yourself, but even if you could find a super converted 4104 like Dan's, if you were lucky, maintaining a 4104 will be an ongoing project in itself. You would have to be very familiar with it in detail because finding a garage that knows it is not so likely nowadays. The 4104 has to be one of the most durable surviving bus models available. Dan is preparing his to go back up to Alaska from Florida pulling a loaded trailer as soon as the weather permits for the sixth time. Sure, he has had some mechanical issues during some of the trips, but he fixed them while on the road because he is a very handy and resourceful individual. 

[Dave Silva]

We understand that you don't want to do the conversion yourself, but even if you could find a super converted 4104 like Dan's, if you were lucky, maintaining a 4104 will be an ongoing project in itself. You would have to be very familiar with it in detail because finding a garage that knows it is not so likely nowadays. The 4104 has to be one of the most durable surviving bus models available. Dan is preparing his to go back up to Alaska from Florida pulling a loaded trailer as soon as the weather permits for the sixth time. Sure, he has had some mechanical issues during some of the trips, but he fixed them while on the road because he is a very handy and resourceful individual. 

I currently own a 1st Gen sprinter.  In my town i can find 2 or 3 people who can work on a 2 stroke Detroit but none who have any idea about my 20 year old van.  I do ALL my own stunts.

Knowing about every moving part is just part of the fun.   

Finding the line between economical, reliable and suitable for real travel is the balancing act.     

The sprinter van fits two out of three.  We did 3 cross country trips with two teens and that was about enough. 

I'm 65, retired, I have one shot at getting smart on the next RV so i'm able to keep it going when i'm 75.

And maybe a 97 Monaco is it.   But that Detroit is calling me.

[Dave Silva]

lad to find someone that supports the concept of doing some research ahead of getting emotionally attached and

There are reports of parts like seals and other essential and critical parts simply no longer available. That makes it a project to just find parts, they are around in the secondary market and pop up, hit and miss on eBay, etc. A key difference in sourcing parts for a 75 year old bus is the need and demand are so low there are virtually no aftermarket makers or suppliers. Some ancient automobiles do have enough fans where demand allows parts to be feasibly made and marketed. No such thing for old a bus.

The house systems often needs something - it is a rolling house with complete mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems. Mine is a rolling power plant too - fully powered by solar, electronics, lithium batteries, and backup generator. Any one component is fine but the totality means there is always work going something. Good luck, make a thorough, informed, and emotionally detached decision and you will be happy in the end.

I would love to see a list of the most unobtainable  parts, and unsolvable problems. That would help a lot in figuring this out.


The house systems for me is the exciting part.     The technology has come so far and gotten so cheap.  And a bus has empty space in all the right places.