Hydrogen retro fit and semi retro fit diesel motors

[lvmci]

Is Tesla's charging station model the key to success with hydrogen trucks?
March 30, 2023 2 By JULIE CAMPBELL

Experts and vehicle manufacturers are considering the advantage of building their own stations.
Nikola Motors has been moving forward aggressively in its efforts to build out an H2 refueling station network that will serve its hydrogen trucks. Recently, Hydrogen Fuel News reported on this strategy for boosting vehicle sales by making sure that companies using them in their fleets would have somewhere to refuel along their routes.

Experts are now wondering if this strategy is the key to ensuring fuel cell vehicle deployment.
hydrogen news ebookNikola has already announced the fourth H2 refueling station in California, with a goal of opening 60 of its HYLA stations by the close of 2026. All things remaining equal, this would more than double the number of H2 stations in the United States, since that number is currently 55, according to the Department of Energy. Every one of those stations is in California.

According to the hydrogen truck maker, its stations will not only be available to drivers of the Nikola Tre fuel cell vehicle, but drivers of H2 trucks from other manufacturers will also be able to refuel there.

[luvrbus]

I read today where they are going to make Hydrogen from sea water to bring the cost down

[freds]

Dang this thread has been extremally long lasting!!!

I sort of attribute it to everyone wanting to think that suck, squeeze, inject fuel, burn/bang and exhaust is the only true way to motive power.

I was racking my brain on how to communicate this given that I have owned a Tesla for about nine years. I also own an airplane in which I typically run a 200HP engine at at least 70% power when I am really going somewhere (like 1/3 of the way across the country). Though in truth haven done much of that in last decade and know that based on physic's is no way I can get an electric airplane to accomplish the same missions.

Anyway I asked ChatGPT 4.0 which is publicly available artificial intelligence  a few leading questions on this subject.

Here's the result of a simple three minute conversation:

Why do people think that hydrogen will be the only true way to motive power for large vehicles than electric battery power vehicles.

There are several reasons why some people believe that hydrogen fuel cells will be the dominant technology for large vehicles rather than battery electric vehicles (BEVs). It's important to note that this is an ongoing debate, and there is no clear consensus on the ideal solution yet. However, here are some arguments in favor of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCVs) for large vehicles:

Energy density: Hydrogen has a higher energy density by weight compared to batteries. This means that for a given weight of fuel, hydrogen can store more energy than a battery can. This is especially important for large vehicles such as trucks, buses, and ships, where adding more batteries would significantly increase the weight and reduce the payload capacity.

Refueling time: Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles can be refueled much faster than battery electric vehicles. While it takes hours to recharge a large battery pack, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle can be refueled in just a few minutes. This makes hydrogen more attractive for long-haul transport and other applications where minimizing downtime is critical.

Range: Due to its high energy density and faster refueling time, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles typically have a longer range than battery electric vehicles. This is particularly important for large vehicles that travel long distances and need to minimize the number of stops.

Scalability: Hydrogen fuel cell technology may be more suitable for large vehicles that require high power outputs. Batteries can become very large and heavy when scaled up for high power demands, while fuel cells can be more easily scaled to meet these requirements.

Environmental impact: While the production of hydrogen can still be carbon-intensive, it has the potential to be produced from renewable energy sources, such as wind or solar power, through electrolysis. This makes hydrogen an attractive option for reducing greenhouse gas emissions in the transportation sector.

However, it's essential to consider the challenges associated with hydrogen fuel cell technology, such as the high cost of fuel cells, limited hydrogen refueling infrastructure, and challenges in producing, storing, and transporting hydrogen. Battery technology is also improving rapidly, and advancements in energy density, charging speed, and cost may address some of the concerns related to large electric vehicles.

In summary, some people believe that hydrogen fuel cells will be the best solution for large vehicles due to their energy density, refueling time, range, scalability, and potential for low environmental impact. However, the debate is ongoing, and the future of motive power for large vehicles will likely involve a combination of hydrogen, battery electric, and other emerging technologies.

throw out hydrogen fuel cells and assume a diesel engine burning hydrogen

Using a diesel engine modified to burn hydrogen instead of diesel fuel presents an interesting alternative for large vehicles. Some advantages and disadvantages of this approach are:

Advantages:

Reduced emissions: Burning hydrogen in a diesel engine would produce water as the primary byproduct, resulting in zero greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. This is a significant advantage for addressing air pollution and climate change concerns.

Existing infrastructure: Diesel engines are widely used in large vehicles such as trucks, buses, and ships, and there is extensive experience and infrastructure for maintaining and repairing these engines. Modifying them to run on hydrogen could leverage the existing knowledge base and infrastructure.

Quick refueling: Like hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen combustion engines could be refueled relatively quickly, reducing downtime compared to recharging electric vehicles.

Energy density: Hydrogen has a high energy density by weight, which could translate to longer ranges for hydrogen-powered vehicles compared to battery electric vehicles, especially for large vehicles with high energy demands.

Disadvantages:

Efficiency: Diesel engines that burn hydrogen are generally less efficient than fuel cells in converting hydrogen's energy into useful work. This means that more hydrogen would be required to travel the same distance, potentially making it more expensive to operate compared to fuel cells or electric vehicles.

Hydrogen storage: Storing hydrogen is still a challenge, as it requires high pressures, cryogenic temperatures, or chemical storage methods. This adds complexity, weight, and cost to the vehicle.

Infrastructure: Although the diesel engine infrastructure exists, the hydrogen distribution and refueling infrastructure are still limited. Significant investments would be needed to create a widespread network of hydrogen refueling stations.

Production and distribution: As with hydrogen fuel cells, producing, storing, and distributing hydrogen at scale remains challenging. While hydrogen can be produced from renewable sources through electrolysis, most hydrogen is currently produced from natural gas, which is not carbon-neutral.

In summary, using a diesel engine modified to burn hydrogen could offer some advantages, including reduced emissions and leveraging existing infrastructure. However, challenges related to efficiency, hydrogen storage, and production and distribution infrastructure still need to be addressed. It's likely that a combination of technologies, including hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen combustion engines, and battery electric vehicles, will be employed to meet the diverse needs of large vehicles.

remove all reference to fuel cells just concentrate on engines that burn hydrogen and how available it is today? I.E. If you had such a vehicle next week where could you travel with it?

If you had a vehicle with an internal combustion engine modified to burn hydrogen next week, you would face some challenges related to the availability of hydrogen refueling infrastructure. While hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, its distribution and refueling infrastructure are still limited compared to traditional gasoline and diesel fuel.

The availability of hydrogen refueling stations varies greatly depending on your location. Some regions, like California in the United States, have made significant investments in hydrogen infrastructure, with around 50 public hydrogen stations. In Europe, Germany has been a leader in the deployment of hydrogen stations, with around 100 stations. Japan and South Korea also have a growing hydrogen refueling infrastructure.

However, these numbers are still small compared to the thousands of gasoline and diesel stations in these countries. In many other parts of the world, hydrogen refueling infrastructure is almost non-existent or very limited.

If you had a hydrogen-burning vehicle next week, your ability to travel with it would depend on the availability of hydrogen refueling stations along your route. In regions with a growing hydrogen infrastructure, like California or Germany, you might be able to travel relatively easily between major cities, as long as you plan your trip around the locations of hydrogen refueling stations. However, in areas with limited or no hydrogen refueling infrastructure, you would face significant challenges in refueling your vehicle.

In summary, the current availability of hydrogen for vehicles with internal combustion engines that burn hydrogen is limited and region-dependent. If you had such a vehicle next week, your ability to travel would depend on the hydrogen refueling infrastructure in your area and along your planned route. As hydrogen infrastructure continues to expand, the practicality of hydrogen-burning vehicles will increase, but for now, it remains a challenge.

Given that hydrogen has to manufactured, stored and transported could it be more economical then diesel in the next decade?

Hydrogen has the potential to become more economical than diesel in the next decade, but it depends on several factors. Some of these factors include advancements in hydrogen production, storage, and distribution technologies, as well as the growth of renewable energy sources, government policies, and the overall progress in building the hydrogen economy.

Production: Currently, most hydrogen is produced through steam methane reforming (SMR) using natural gas, which is not carbon-neutral. However, hydrogen can also be produced from water through electrolysis, powered by renewable energy sources like solar or wind. If the cost of renewable energy continues to decline and electrolysis technology becomes more efficient, it could make hydrogen production more economical and sustainable compared to diesel.

Storage and transportation: Hydrogen storage and transportation are currently challenging and expensive due to its low energy density by volume, necessitating high-pressure or cryogenic storage. However, research is ongoing in areas such as metal hydrides, ammonia, and other hydrogen carriers that could reduce the costs and challenges associated with hydrogen storage and transportation. If breakthroughs are achieved in these areas, hydrogen could become more competitive with diesel.

Infrastructure: Building a hydrogen refueling infrastructure is capital-intensive and will require significant investments. As the hydrogen refueling network expands, economies of scale could help reduce the cost of hydrogen distribution and make it more competitive with diesel.

Government policies and incentives: Government policies, regulations, and incentives play a crucial role in the adoption of alternative fuels. If governments implement strong policies to encourage the development of hydrogen infrastructure, production, and vehicle adoption, it could help make hydrogen more economical compared to diesel.

Diesel prices: The price of diesel is influenced by global oil prices, which can be volatile. If oil prices rise significantly in the next decade, hydrogen could become more competitive with diesel from an economic standpoint.

In summary, while there are still challenges to overcome, hydrogen has the potential to become more economical than diesel in the next decade if advancements in production, storage, transportation, and infrastructure occur alongside supportive government policies and favorable market conditions. However, predicting the exact timeline for when hydrogen becomes more economical than diesel remains uncertain.

=====================================================================

Ok how many P's in "fat chance?"

I talked a friend out of buy a hydrogen powered fuel cell car and into a Tesla with the following two questions.

How many places can you refuel you car? Answer fifty in the entire United States (most in California) who if you drove into refueling station can only refuel fifty cars before the station is empty.

You live in Seattle and you want to take it to LA, how would you do that? Load it on the back of trailer or truck and haul it there...

PS. A Tesla Semi has three motors with mostly one motor used. The main purpose of the other two motors is as generators to harvest more energy for reuse as they slow down (idiot's cutting in front of them) then climbing hills.

[luvrbus]

My broker told me Hydrogen is going to be big in the stock market in the near future,Today was a good day in the oil trading  so I am going hang with it for a while longer

[Dave5Cs]

Read yesterday that Ford is making some top tier engines that will run on Hydrogen and getting away from EV's. Newsome in Cali says they will go to a lot of Hydrogen tech also and cut out Diesel engine truck sales by 2035. Good luck with that Gav.

[windtrader]

@freds

Ok how many P's in "fat chance?"

I talked a friend out of buy a hydrogen powered fuel cell car and into a Tesla with the following two questions.

How many places can you refuel you car? Answer fifty in the entire United States (most in California) who if you drove into refueling station can only refuel fifty cars before the station is empty.

You live in Seattle and you want to take it to LA, how would you do that? Load it on the back of trailer or truck and haul it there...

PS. A Tesla Semi has three motors with mostly one motor used. The main purpose of the other two motors is as generators to harvest more energy for reuse as they slow down (idiot's cutting in front of them) then climbing hills.

Not sure if you slyly meant to vector the thread toward AI but if half the reply from Chat GPT makes sense that is the real story of interest. Who cares about hydrogen when Chat-GPT5 will find a developable fusion solution. Once energy is unlimited, a new world opens up.
I won't steer this thread OT but humans and sovereign entities need to get up to speed with the advancements in AI. It will be the next paradigm and revolutionary tech advancment that can alter mankind on Earth. Watch some discussions and demos on youtube.

[luvrbus]

Wonder if AI will have problems determining what sex it is or it  wants to be.  

[lvmci]

I never thought I would ever to have to answer statements posed by a computer.
As some of you have read here, there are multiple hydrogen carrying processes that I have brought with these replys, most being oriented to our bus world engine changes.
Even to this day few electric vehicles can drive in the winter or summer from LA to LV without stopping in Barstow for an extended charge. As witnessed by a man that has a diesel generator on the back of his diesel pickup that has multiple connectors to fit multiple brand EVs, that have misjudged distances driving their EVs.
My effort here is to give an idea to our community, there is a way to save our bus conversions to give to the next generation of our community. Either hydrogen combustion or hydrogen electric.
   My CNG pickups I had during one of the gas crisis, when I was commuting to LA to work, allowed me to continue to work, while people in SoCal coundnt get gas to drive from a valley away.
  Then T Boone Pickens started up Clean Energy fuel stations. Their buildup took awhile but soon you could travel with your CNG pickup throughout the south west. The EV stations are popping up all over with a concerted effort just as happened with CNG. It will take awhile to build up hydrogen fueling stations, just as it will take some time to cycle thru all the new 18 wheelers that are bringing us our goods right now.

[luvrbus]

Musk is spending a lot of money on charging stations they popping up all over Needles Ca,I noticed one of the pot shops there installing some. We don't have any on the AZ side of the river. Speaking with a old friend from Walmart they declined Musk offer for stations at all Walmart's. Hydrogen is in our future too much money behind the Hydrogen concept, once they get the process cheaper and not needing fossil fuels to make it. The moisture that the Hydrogen engines produces I seen is going to need to be addressed they are going to have a rust problem.  EV trucks are not going to be a player in transportation of goods  across the US, some states are upping the weight limit for trucks to 88,000 lbs incase in does though. The battery bank must be a heavy sucker, Tesla has a recall on the 35 EV trucks and they haven't been delivered yet   

[muldoonman]

Read yesterday that Ford is making some top tier engines that will run on Hydrogen and getting away from EV's. Newsome in Cali says they will go to a lot of Hydrogen tech also and cut out Diesel engine truck sales by 2035. Good luck with that Gav.

That Idiot Governor working with the Idiot in the Whitehouse is trying to kill the Diesel Motor in California. Betcha it gets tougher on the 2 Stroke Guys regardless what they say about about letting you drive um (RV/Buses) on their roads

[luvrbus]

That Idiot Governor working with the Idiot in the Whitehouse is trying to kill the Diesel Motor in California. Betcha it gets tougher on the 2 Stroke Guys regardless what they say about about letting you drive um (RV/Buses) on their roads

At 1 time Newsom said all vehicles will be EV's in California,lol they are so broke now he couldn't inforce it.They were paying Freight line like Swift to buy CNG trucks for use on the docks ,no diesel trucks was allowed
 

[muldoonman]

At 1 time Newsom said all vehicles will be EV's in California,lol they are so broke now he couldn't inforce it.They were paying Freight line like Swift to buy CNG trucks for use on the docks ,no diesel trucks was allowed

Yeah Cliff, You can't fix Stupid.

[Van]

😫

[luvrbus]

Hydrogen makes more sense than EV's,My friend in Scottsdale just done a 4500 mile trip in his Tesla, and said never again that it added about 8 hours to their trip and the saving in fuel over his Escalade wasn't worth the hassle.Then a tow in Neveda really has him going

[windtrader]

I'm no Cali fanboy but if you realistically look at history, the saying "As California goes, so goes the country". California often paves the way, right or wrong. There are a lot of statements made here based on personal feelings and that is the American way, feel and say what you want. But that does not mean it is accurate or false, it is your personal opinion.
The wild card is again the advancement in AI and the effective guidance and constraints placed on the technology. At the exponential rate of advancement, AI can solve fusion far quicker than humans. Let's say inside five years AI develops a workable fusion reactor. What this means is electricity is unlimited. This will alter the face of the planet and business and everything affecting our daily lives. I present this as it is coming so fast, I'm not sure how many folks are getting educated about the amount of change that is around the corner.