Value of a pre DPF bus? J4500 years and options.

someguy · August 23, 2020, 10:36:26 AM

I'm looking at 2006 to 2009 J4500s.

- 2003 was the year MCI changed over from gold relay bricks to Vansco Multiplex. I don't want gold bricks and I do want the Vansco multiplex system.

- 2004 buses had Q Brakes. Not as good as later years.

- 2005 buses got a different brake, like what was used on the E4500 and DL3s.

-2006 buses got the EX225 brakes, which I want. Stops much shorter than the earlier brake systems. Parts are readily available and affordable. They use EPA2004 engines, which are EGR only. No DPF.

- 2007 buses got Cat DPF (EPA2007) engines. They were horrible. Many were bought back and replaced with Cummins or Detroits.

- 2008 buses got Cummins ISM or DD S60 DPF (EPA2007) engines. They were generally good.

- 2009 buses got the wide ride system but they sell for more than I want to spend.

The EPA 2007 ISM is rated at 410/1550, which is the top truck engine rating for the ISM that year. Cummins also built ISM 500s for motorhomes, but they are hard to find. It is fairly difficult to upgrade the ISM 410 to the ISM 500 because Cummins made a lot of changes between the truck and motorhome engines.

The ISM has 345 exhaust braking HP. The ISM weighs 2060 pounds dry.

The EPA 2007 S60 (14L) is rated at 435HP/1150, but DD shipped them in trucks up to 515HP. It is probably fairly easy to upgrade the S60 to 515HP. And there are lots of S60 515HP engines around.

The S60 has a lot more engine braking. It weighs about 2600 pounds dry.

I really want 500HP. I want to keep the bus EPA compliant so that it passes emissions testing. EPA swaps are harder to do because you have to get the DPF stuff working.

I plan to keep this bus for ~15 years. I might build another one when I retire, we'll see. I'm not going to full time, but I'll make lots of local trips with it and a couple long trips every year. Yearly mileage will be 10Kish.

I assume that I'll need to do an inframe soone or later on any bus I buy with over 500K on it. The 2006s are fairly rare. They have 600K on them. I have yet to see a 2007. The 2008s are pretty plentiful. They have 350-600K on them.

I have 3 main options:

1) Buy a 2006 bus, which is pre DPF. Very easy to update the engine on those. Just about anything swaps in. ISX, S60 12.7 or 14, earlier ISMs, etc.

2a) Buy a 2008 bus with a Cummins. Wait for a motorhome ISM 500 EPA2007 to become available.
2b) Buy a 2008 bus with a Cummins. Swap in a S60 515 EPA2007 engine.

3) Buy a 2008 bus with a Cat. Swap in a S60 515 EPA2007 engine.

4) Buy a 2008 bus with a S60. Upgrade the S60 to 515HP or swap in a 515HP EPA2007 engine.

What would you do ?

DPFs do plug and need replacing from time to time. They are very expensive. Like $4K.

I'm thinking my ideal bus would be a lower mileage 2006 with the S60 and the 12 speed AS Tronic. The 2008s are in a little nicer condition, but not much. The 2006 are cheaper. But that may change as there are lots of 2008s for sale.

Swapping an S60 into a Cat or Cummins bus wouldn't be too bad as long as MCI used the same exhaust treatment system and the engine comes with all the harness and sensors to do the exhaust treatment. I haven't verified that MCI did that yet, but I suspect they have.

I was originally leaning to the ISM because it is so much lighter. But then I realized that the ISM is pretty stressed to make 500HP, whereas the S60 makes 515 all day long. And S60 parts are a lot cheaper. And the ISM has limited engine braking and the S60 has lots.

I'm trying not to over think this, but buying the right bus could save me a lot of headache in the long run.

buswarrior · August 23, 2020, 10:46:06 AM

I would not be swapping electronic engines, especially between brands.

I would not knowingly buy an engine that has major work looming. Totally upside down the moment you buy engine parts.

Unless your hobby is about overcoming the myriad of issues involved, and all about working on it exclusively...

You won't be doing any camping or travelling, as all your time and hobby money will be consumed overcoming the unknowns in the above unnecessary work.

Buy the coach with the engine you want, the project just shortened up by a couple of years and thousands of dollars.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

someguy · August 23, 2020, 11:22:31 AM

Quote from: buswarrior on August 23, 2020, 10:46:06 AM
I would not be swapping electronic engines, especially between brands.

I've done it before. And MCI has really good wiring diagrams for each of the engines. This would not be hard to do.

QuoteI would not knowingly buy an engine that has major work looming. Totally upside down the moment you buy engine parts.

Guess what ? Buses with <400K on them sell for a fortune. A bus with 500K will need engine work. One of the buses I'm looking at has a 700+ on it with a C12 and it is rebuilt. An inframe will cost $2500 for the kit, plus head work.

QuoteUnless your hobby is about overcoming the myriad of issues involved, and all about working on it exclusively...

Nope. But I want to start with a good chassis and that means engine work at some point.

QuoteYou won't be doing any camping or travelling, as all your time and hobby money will be consumed overcoming the unknowns in the above unnecessary work.

It will be my hobby for a while, that is for sure. None of the buses I'm looking at need engine work immediately. But they aren't spring chickens anymore.

The good side to these buses is that they are clean, no rust, straight bodies, great brakes and modern electrical systems.

QuoteBuy the coach with the engine you want, the project just shortened up by a couple of years and thousands of dollars.

I somewhat agree with this.

someguy · August 23, 2020, 11:23:38 AM

This is the bus I want.
https://www.lasvegasbussales.com/inventory/sold-buses/2006-mci-j4500-highway-coach-c63262/

luvrbus · August 23, 2020, 12:01:21 PM

As been said before look into buy a J in CA anything under 2010 has to be gone or upgraded to 2010 emissions standards,Las Vegas bus sales brings a lot of those into Vegas to be sold cut him out of show.MCI wholesales there older stock in CA but Mike K the former owner on this board always get the first choice from MCI.Vegas Bus Sale and Mike K make a good profit from those buses shop wise and don't pay retail Watch TNT Auction Salt Lake is replacing all their J model commuter service buses with new J's they will hit the auction block soon

Jim Blackwood · August 23, 2020, 12:18:36 PM

Mike had no interest in having a bus brought to KY.

someguy · August 23, 2020, 12:41:38 PM

Quote from: luvrbus on August 23, 2020, 12:01:21 PM
As been said before look into buy a J in CA anything under 2010 has to be gone or upgraded to 2010 emissions standards,Las Vegas bus sales brings a lot of those into Vegas to be sold cut him out of show.MCI wholesales there older stock in CA but Mike K the former owner on this board always get the first choice from MCI.Vegas Bus Sale and Mike K make a good profit from those buses shop wise and don't pay retail Watch TNT Auction Salt Lake is replacing all their J model commuter service buses with new J's they will hit the auction block soon

Thanks for the tip.

someguy · August 23, 2020, 12:44:21 PM

FYI, turns out that the pre EPA2007 Cat C13 is a good engine. And it can be turned up to 525 or 600HP with a change in some hard parts and a rerate at a Cat dealer. The hard parts are probably only pistons, which would be needed in an inframe anyway.

The B50 life of the C13 is 1 million miles. The C13 inframe kits are a bit more than the S60 inframe kits, but no worse than the Cummins inframe kits.

The C13 looks like the easiest engine to get >500HP from. I'll call my local Cat dealer tomorrow and get more info.

luvrbus · August 23, 2020, 01:09:26 PM

C13's with one turbo delate are good engine twin turbos gave problems so did the EGR but that was a easy delate

someguy · August 23, 2020, 08:39:59 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEG9TFXRGJY

someguy · August 24, 2020, 10:43:32 PM

FYI...

The Cat C13 used in the pre DPF buses (pre EPA2007 engines) has serial number prefix "KCB" and is from engine family CPXH0763EBK. The EPA2007 engines have serial number prefix "LEE".

The KCB/ CPXH0763EBK is the same engine family that makes 525HP in motorhomes. As far as I can tell there are no hard part differences between our bus C13s and the motorhome C13s. In fact, the valve cover of a bus I'm looking at states that the engine is capable of 525HP. (See below.)

Cat will normally change the software rating of an engine for a couple hundred dollars. However, I spoke to a person at Cat who informed me that the MCI C13 engines are classified as a "truck" application and not an "RV" application. Thus they are "locked out" of the RV rating. Not by engine hardware, but by politics. I argued that I was converting the bus into a motorhome and thus it should be reclassified as an RV. He is looking into it.

The other issue is that the C13 ECMs sometimes fail and fail when programming. There is probably a 10% chance that the ECM will fail if reprogrammed. However, used ECMs are plentiful for $500 and up and the person programming the ECM should backup all the data off the current ECM before trying to reprogram it.

Long story short... the C13s in pre EPA2007 buses can be upgraded to 550 HP with a simple ECM reprogram. Whether Cat will do that for a bus is another story.

Who wants 525HP ?