Relocating Wabesto

[sledhead]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gpT2UzZBWKRAR8f4DB7su9mTV-nl7ibDeGFCBHued2yQ7mOceZx5ePe4i7wAYIHxi9hJRwkLVnDeJ3KC44BdOC0UIcoqxW8-stZA_8-k63K3uRLZ8Qe04VprrpzsoLtqipdJRhdkUoU7OlsiZoeRZ76ES5v0OuQb0kl3jG1YNgyMbMZOiG4VJoz4tVGzDMKMohGyZUhcesM-faYLbShDBz7x1v2N0_2Ija9bwNfiBH_40cqWpoL7b6UxqAMAiueidHi2ePy8I0XvsyixPLmSBRvHcBQvxjyL_rKMA_1tMUYnhFv-siS9QIDk6uzcMksx-prk20esbJ15gJ0QFm1xl1bp5jxdx9oamr5zoYA7EoqSt0nShZ8B_d5x_dnJYsHyDJ2oh6X5dfqg9kFNos7Oim-K3LLuOnbGMbKrCpoCLlAqx20Z1ZmhCCNGdQnHs4h4U-XFnv1ELkAEsrpMBq45EShgsaqPJclu4vN9IvKSV4vS0_yXxnr0OrUYVf1roQwtMvj5iEJR6AqkatyIyQo0C3OJNqLvxlkFVy3gsF8JxIaQT_geLhxyHjg2hjX1tLwzaGpfJN5DGkosgGpgy7Tz_fCmSgkpODDZCLtqywJ6jmJZ7RDYYgaUECxHMOLXuGTXgbUOniTj2UEsn-eGC9tEEfQZkfteqDRbEiVSSVd6OPx9NLEnefafExeFQgND1zYWKbrmOfsKJWXE-ICJR1hjLSX_h9YxtO3hTfNgJnGSe3eaU0wg=w638-h479-no

[Jcparmley]

Sled head

Do you remember how you wired up a thermostat to turn on the fans, pump and Wabesto at the same time?  What type of thermostat did you use?  Also, did you have a pump for each heat exchanger?  What type of pump did you use?  Thanks for all the info, I really appreciated it.

Jared

quote author=sledhead link=topic=34313.msg393758#msg393758 date=1569586456]
heat exchange heating units

1 in bed room 1 fan unit

1 in crapper room 1 fan unit

1 in bath room 2 fan unit

1 in kit 3 fan unit

1 in living room up front 2 fan unit

1 in each bay in basement

all are on separate thermostats

when any thermostat turn on it turns on muffin fan,zone pump and boiler that cycles on and off as needed 

If you look in the pic you can see the heating vents near the floor 1 is a cold air return and 1 is the heat vent with the exchange right behind the vent . When the heat is on it heats up the floor in front nice on the feet as well

very easy to control heat anywhere and no cold spots   

dave
[/quote]

[sledhead]

you do need to know what you are doing or call a boiler heating guy to help you . any thermostat almost to turn on a relay a long with everything else . I used the pumps as I already had them but it would be cheaper to use a zone valve system with 1 or 2 pumps . you can make the system as simple as you want and yes my system is a little complex but I have done this type of heating system for 20 years now on homes ,rvs , garages , commercial buildings


dave 

[Jcparmley]

So does the zone valve system run off of 12 volt DC or AC?

[sledhead]

if you go with 12 volt dc it will cost a lot more but if you go with home stuff and a small inverter you can save some money . my 12 volt pumps are $400 each and I have 4 of them but I used them from the aqua hot system I replaced .
https://www.amazon.ca/Normally-Electric-Actuator-Manifold-underfloor/dp/B07MCYL92H/ref=sr_1_39?gclid=Cj0KCQjw5rbsBRCFARIsAGEYRwcvXDVEFUQ3Nj5sXTuqbhPGpW9LVvjsVsiSGMn8uriLmke_hj9APusaAsgMEALw_wcB&hvadid=284264123896&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001114&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o1&hvqmt=b&hvrand=12108281509574488802&hvtargid=aud-749511860819%3Akwd-297391893503&hydadcr=27400_9830481&keywords=heating+manifold&qid=1569622627&sr=8-39

https://www.amazon.ca/Manifold-Stainless-Radiant-Heating-PEX-M12-4/dp/B011W54YL2/ref=sr_1_6?gclid=Cj0KCQjw5rbsBRCFARIsAGEYRwcvXDVEFUQ3Nj5sXTuqbhPGpW9LVvjsVsiSGMn8uriLmke_hj9APusaAsgMEALw_wcB&hvadid=284264123896&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001114&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o1&hvqmt=b&hvrand=12108281509574488802&hvtargid=aud-749511860819%3Akwd-297391893503&hydadcr=27400_9830481&keywords=heating+manifold&qid=1569623039&sr=8-6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-8EWK1Moh0&t=74s


there is a lot involved to do this


dave

[freds]

Hi Everyone

EBay has some military surplus 10KW Espar Hydronic 10 heaters. The only drawback is that they are 24 volts, but you can add a converter. The seller was originally asking $1684.00 for them but I talked him down to $850.00 for my purchase.

He then changed the price and it's still listed as $850.00 after I placed my order.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173978153882

[buswarrior]

Designing a satisfying boiler system requires a lot of thought and doodling on note paper.

A handful of creative thoughts:

How to avoid temperature overshoot inside?

How to defend against short cycling the burner.

Control the interior air temperature?

Control the coolant temperature?

Domestic hot water loop?

Engine pre-heat loop? And the reverse? Using 2000 lbs of hot engine as a source of heat after a drive?

Generator contribute anything to the system?

Where and how to fill the system, catch the noisy air bubbles, room for expansion?

Defence against self destruction when it springs a leak?

Battery voltage or household voltage?

How long can it boondock before charging/plugging in?

A great exercise in creative engineering!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[freds]

Designing a satisfying boiler system requires a lot of thought and doodling on note paper.

A handful of creative thoughts:

How to avoid temperature overshoot inside?

How to defend against short cycling the burner.

Control the interior air temperature?

Control the coolant temperature?

Domestic hot water loop?

Engine pre-heat loop? And the reverse? Using 2000 lbs of hot engine as a source of heat after a drive?

Generator contribute anything to the system?

Where and how to fill the system, catch the noisy air bubbles, room for expansion?

Defence against self destruction when it springs a leak?

Battery voltage or household voltage?

How long can it boondock before charging/plugging in?

A great exercise in creative engineering!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

All very good questions/trade offs, let me throw another one in there. Assuming you have solar and excess generation to your needs where to best dump the excess energy?

What is defined as a short cycle?

Also should you have a common coolant for everything with valves to tie in or isolate or have heat exchangers to isolate the systems, so a leak in one system doesn't affect the others?

My bus does have a engine heated hot water tank, but not sure if there is independent pump if the engine is not running.

 

[Jim Blackwood]

By all means put in valves to isolate the coach and engine. A hot water loop isn't a bad idea either and rather easily done especially if you can use convection to move water in the hot water heater tank. (May be difficult) Don't go too small on the lines but big solenoid valves ain't cheap.

Jim

[freds]

my 12 volt pumps are $400 each and I have 4 of them but I used them from the aqua hot system I replaced .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-8EWK1Moh0&t=74s

there is a lot involved to do this

dave

By all means put in valves to isolate the coach and engine. A hot water loop isn't a bad idea either and rather easily done especially if you can use convection to move water in the hot water heater tank. (May be difficult) Don't go too small on the lines but big solenoid valves ain't cheap.

Jim

OK, lots of great idea's on here and I especially liked that Sledhead/Dave engineered a replacement for a aqua-hot system.

My understand of such a hydronics system is that you have a heat reservoir that performs the following functions or operations.

1. Operating heat temperature is at or below 195 degrees for the fluid heat reservoir.
2. Via a heat exchanger the operating reservoir can be brought up to temperature by waste engine heat.
3. Multiple pumps move heated fluid from the reservoir to different zones to heat the bus.
4. Hot water on demand; is via a heat exchanger from a cold water source with an inversion valve to keep it from getting too hot.
6. Fluid heat reservoir is also heated from Wabesto style diesel fluid heater/boiler that turns on when temperature drops below set point of say 150 degrees.

My bus currently has a electric hot water heater that has an engine heat exchanger as a heat source.

Couldn't I create a poor man's hydronics system by re-purposing this water heater to be my operating fluid heat reservoir, by adding the appropriate parts and automation?

[buswarrior]

You've got it.

Hotwater heater makes a fine reservoir.

Use the power pole or generator to help make heat or redundancy for boiler failure.

Good for the solar power dump too.

Coolant boilers will only make 160 degrees. The engine will go to 195.

Running the domestic hot water supply up to a high temperature and using a tempering/anti-scald device gives you "more" hot water than tempering down the whole supply.

Beware of introducing feedback loops to the engine that will overheat it, if all the parts have reached full temperature, and aren't shedding heat from the coolant heading back to the engine... it's all lovely until everything is hot...

Study the stock HVAC control strategy, valve in the return...
I'd be inclined to have a NC valve, only needs power to facilitate block heating when shut down, and power is available to open when engine running and heating is desired.

Also fails safe to protect engine if something goes wrong with it all...

And if you are really slick... control all of this from INSIDE the coach. So many busnuts have to go outside and open many bay doors to change their configurations... In the rain, in the cold, on the side of the road, etc etc...

Quarter turn valves can have extensions put to their shafts and brought up through the floor into the bottoms of cabinets, under seating, etc...

Why does a busnut want to go out there?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[freds]

You've got it.

Hotwater heater makes a fine reservoir.

Use the power pole or generator to help make heat or redundancy for boiler failure.

Good for the solar power dump too.

Coolant boilers will only make 160 degrees. The engine will go to 195.

Running the domestic hot water supply up to a high temperature and using a tempering/anti-scald device gives you "more" hot water than tempering down the whole supply.

Beware of introducing feedback loops to the engine that will overheat it, if all the parts have reached full temperature, and aren't shedding heat from the coolant heading back to the engine... it's all lovely until everything is hot...

Study the stock HVAC control strategy, valve in the return...
I'd be inclined to have a NC valve, only needs power to facilitate block heating when shut down, and power is available to open when engine running and heating is desired.

Also fails safe to protect engine if something goes wrong with it all...

And if you are really slick... control all of this from INSIDE the coach. So many busnuts have to go outside and open many bay doors to change their configurations... In the rain, in the cold, on the side of the road, etc etc...

Quarter turn valves can have extensions put to their shafts and brought up through the floor into the bottoms of cabinets, under seating, etc...

Why does a busnut want to go out there?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Great thanks for the feedback!!! Very much going to give this a go and hey will document it!

PS. Software nerd in my day job, fault tolerant stuff 365/24/7, been noodling away on home automation stuff lately, thinking off grid stand alone.

PPS. Any links to HVAC control strategy documents?

[Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM]

LOL Aqua Hots are great they never need servicing or give problems  .I never had a Aqua Hot worked on for less than $700 bucks x's that by 100 he makes some serious bucks

Lloyd services mine in Quartzsite for $195 each year and that is basically all it needs.  If you are paying $700 you need to start using Lloyd for your service work.  Or quite trying to burn that used motor oil from your garage in it to save a few bucks Cliff. 

[buswarrior]

Just wait, Gary. Your turn will come...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[sledhead]

in my system the hot water tank ( 11 gal. ) is elect 120 volts and boiler loop as well and yes you can use the 120 volt elct. to heat the heat ex changers inside the coach but if only on 120 elct. it will not last that long before the heat is gone . I use a 6 gal. buffer tank that the engine loop goes through as well as the boiler for extra capacity for the coach heat and I could hook up the 120 volt elec. to it but did not as it wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand for heat . when driving the engine will keep everything nice and warm once the engine is  warmed up and when it is cold out I use the boiler to bring the engine up to temp. then the boiler heat will cycle off unless the engine temp. falls below 150 * f and the boiler will fire up and turn off at about 165*f . the hole time the boiler pump is running to keep the heat system going . I installed a timer and a small led light at the drivers seat so I can tell when the burner is firing . on our last 600 mile trip the burner only fired up for 1 hr and 10 min. in the 12 hrs that we were driving ( included 2 cold starts ) . most of that time was pre heat for the engine as my engine runs cool for a long time up until it warms up . then it is almost always 190 *f  - 192 * f regardless of hills or outside temps

pre emissions 3406e cat   

proheat x45 boiler


dave