Electric Buses in California

[Bus Lurker]

Hello Bus Folks,

This week I read an article which reported that the California Air Resources Board (CARB) will require that all mass transit buses in California to be fully electric by the year 2029. It was also reported that there are 12,000+- mass transit buses in California.  The idea of trashing 12,000 buses so the state can go green does not sound green at all!

The LA Times reports that the test electric buses that do exist are plagued by "stalls, stops, and breakdowns."  San Francisco officials are worried that electric buses may not have enough "oomph" to get a full load of passengers up its famously steep hills.

I don't see how an electric bus can run its powertrain, AC, lights and doors constantly without shutting down the bus to recharge.  In city bus systems when a driver's shift ends, a replacement driver is put on the same bus.  Will cities be required to increase the number of their fleets to allow for shutting buses down to recharge?

Here in California we have already witnessed the fantastic Crown buses sent to the junk yards because they were deemed a threat to clean air.  The Crown body was built to last for decades!

I checked out CARB's website to search for any mention of eliminating the emissions exemption for privately owned Rvs, but there was no update on their current position.  One has to wonder if the days of bus conversion owners being allow to run two stroke Detroit Diesels here are numbered. 

I don't have a two stroke conversion yet, but I question the wisdom of buying one just to have California refuse to register the coach. 

Mike 

[Dave5Cs]

They are exempt and because of FMCA political presents will be to at least 2029 but will still be an Antique Bus conversion at that point and still able to operate. They don't care about old buses as they call them.
This was started by Jerry Brown as his leaving Legacy and then Gavin as of January and he is going to be worse or as bad as JB. They say things like by 2029 all vehicles will be electric. Really are you going to pay for new cars for everyone? Won't happen. Its just as always like the money they grabbed from fixing the roads in California which they never did. They just look for things they can tax for money grabs for all their little programs.
Now they want to tax texting and the people here are already going "YA RIGHT"

PS Sf has always had electric Buses they just are attached to overhead lines!...

[HB of CJ]

Perhaps a good example of political over reach?  Ten, (10) years may not be enough time.  Tech does march on.  Batteries may greatly improve.  Charging stations may multiply.  Or ... some appointed idiots may grow a brain. Maybe we can teach the horse to sing? 

[richard5933]

Nashville has some type of electric bus system. Not sure of all the details, but on a recent visit I did see a few 'fast charge stations'.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson%20/2016/05/16/nashville-mta-awarded-electric-buses/84457578/

If changes are to be made, someone has to start the process and start setting deadlines. I don't know enough to say if this will end well or not, but it's not just California doing this.

[Jim Eh.]

Could they not easily implement all future Federally (or State) funded sponsored purchases will only be granted if the new purchase is all electric. That could easily be implemented next year so that by 2029 attrition will do the conversion gradually and a little more painlessly. They could also put a restriction on rebuilds if they were a funded purchase in the first place. Although that one may be tough to implement. It could also be controlled by applying a levy (yeah ... more tax) to insurance policies of petrochemical powered units on an increasing (by age) scale. This would be simple incentive for transit companies to get with the program.

It would be a bit of a burden on the service departments during that transition stage having to maintain two different drive systems but it usually goes that way whenever a newer version of technology comes online. Perhaps that would be better to gradually bring it in finding bugs on a small number of units or charging station systems than converting a 200-1000 count fleet.

Our Provincial (State) owned insurance company already prohibits the re-sale of any written off vehicle older than 1995 from being put back on the road after proper repair by deeming it "irreparable" therefore effectively taking old smog producers (yeah, I know) off the road.

[Geoff]

The best news I've heard lately is that Trump wants to do away with CARB and cut back on the EPA future guidelines.

[windtrader]

Here's more details that make it far more realistic
https://www.electrive.com/2018/12/16/california-requires-all-new-buses-to-be-electric-by-2029/

Phase in starts in 2029 and fully implemented by 2040. Much like the CARB regs on moving from 2 strokes to four strokes which has taken nearly 20 years.

[chessie4905]

Just keep in mind the world WILL run out of oil. Just how long it'll take is the big question. World consumption of oil keeps increasing as more under developed countries advance and have more automobiles using more gasoline. Eventually, a barrel of oil will price will increase enough as supplies dwindle to price the ability to operate a bus conversion out of practicality. Enjoy it while you can. Electric items run by batteries appear to be more feasible every year. The cost and capacity of batteries are improving every year.
California seems to be more wacko every year, but the world still watches their plans and measure their successes and failures. Just don't live there.🎪

[Dave5Cs]

Said by a guy that goes by Chessie and you call us nuts? LOL

Geoff, Its a state run deal so "The Donald" can't take any action on CARB.

If these buses are so bad then answer me this. How are they going to produce enough electric to power all these electric things and stop using oil and coal? Solar ain't gona do it yet.

Its like these do gooders that got rid of plastic bags, what about all the other plastics, like things from fry's that are tightly wrapped in plastic bubbles etc.

And if we were saving trees as the tree huggers want, then why does everything from Amazon come in 2 to 3 boxes that are way to big for the product bought. Just sayin...

[Oonrahnjay]

... Geoff, Its a state run deal so "The Donald" can't take any action on CARB. ...

       Not the President, any President, but it's not right to say that.  Currently, the Federal Clean Air Act says that no state can enforce any standards other than the Federal standard -- except for California, which has an exemption.  If they take that (and all other) exemptions away, then that's the end for CA exhaust emissions.  I'm not sure how that applies to purchase of vehicles, etc.
       Taking away the exemption must be done by Congress, through a bill that's passed by both houses and then signed into law by the President.  But "the President" can't do it alone.
       In practicality, I think it will never happen.

[DoubleEagle]

Here's more details that make it far more realistic
https://www.electrive.com/2018/12/16/california-requires-all-new-buses-to-be-electric-by-2029/

Phase in starts in 2029 and fully implemented by 2040. Much like the CARB regs on moving from 2 strokes to four strokes which has taken nearly 20 years.

The first site pictures buses with overhead wire connections, which means batteries might not be involved, but these kinds of buses and trolleys have been around for a while, and requires a wire grid to be strung up. Dayton, Ohio, had these for decades, but now they are switching to CNG powered buses. Could it be that California is lagging behind? 

[Dave5Cs]

Agree Bruce but,
He said CARB and Trump. Any president can only take away the exemption by Congressional Vote like you said which then would stop CARB in that process but he can not just wave his wand and take away CARB like was stated.

[Jeremy]

Just to point out that transit buses are in many ways the most prime candidate for electrification of any type of vehicle there is - not only do they primarily operate in urban areas (where reducing emissions of diesel particulates is hugely desirable) but transit buses usually have highly structured routes and timetables and usage profiles (low speed and lots of stops and starts) that both suit the characteristics of electric motors and make it relatively easy to schedule battery top-ups. Ultimately you'll have things like inductive charging loops buried in the road surface at popular bus-stops, and buses that run continuously without ever needing to be plugged-in to a charger at at all

And, yes, city-centre trolley buses or trams are definitely part of the picture too - it's amazing how many cities here have built new tram systems from scratch in the last 10 years or so, usually having previously pulled one up back in the 1920s and 30s.

Jeremy

[richard5933]

Even if California's emission standards were totally removed, things would not change that much in the long run.

As the markets become even global than they already are, auto production will be done to meet the global markets. There are other countries already with standards like California has now, so my guess is that production will continue to meet the most strict standards around. (With the exception of vehicles that are exclusively sold in countries with no or limited standards, and I'm not sure I'd want to drive any of them.)

[CrabbyMilton]

It will be interesting how 100% skoolies will hold up being that all 3 major skoolie builders are beginning to offer them now. As was stated, the tough cycle of a transit bus will require much power so how realistically will the battery last before the bus will konk out going up one of those famous hills thereby stranding people and cause them to wonder why they voted for these lefties to run their cities and state in the name of symbolism as opposed to what has worked so well forever. Electric vehicles will improve to the point where they are as reliable and have the same or better range or power than it's gasoline or diesel counterparts. But we're not there yet and until that day, a hybrid seems to be a good fit for transit.
This is California that you base the story and then you add Midwest(where I live) and east coast winters and really see how long these school and transit buses will last on a charge.