Question on Canadian bus shells MCI DL4500 / DL4000. Good deal or not?

[plyonsMC9]

Good evening!,

Would very much appreciate wisdom from the bus folk here.  I'm looking at, for example, these shells

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-MCI-D4500-MOTORCOACH-57-PASSENGER-BUS-PREVOST-HANHOOL-/122586828388?hash=item1c8abe8e64:g:qa4AAOSwnF9Y7S6X&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-MCI-D4500-MOTORCOACH-57-PASSENGER-BUS-PREVOST-HANHOOL-/122586828389?hash=item1c8abe8e65:g:ddEAAOSwsW9Yyuhr&vxp=mtr

They are are to me, very new.  My current bus I'm sure has over 3 million miles and these are closer to 1/2/ mill.  But the price seems unexpectedly reasonable.  That right away raises my concern, so I am posing the question; what should I be looking out for here?  I get the feeling I may be missing something obvious.  

I see they are the CAT C13 engines.  I searched some truck forums and the drivers weren't that excited about these models.  Not enough power some said.  But I'm thinking they would be plenty for a bus conversion.

I do see the wheelchair door.  That looks messy to remove but I think it could be done for that price.  But maybe not a good idea?

If no red flags I would inspect and have qualified mechanic take a look.

Does the CAT C13 make a good engine for a conversion?  Does anyone know about these Metrolinx buses, and whether they really did maintain them well?  I see the $1,100 border fee.

Thanks very much for your thoughts, concerns, suggestions!

Kind Regards, Phil

[TomC]

Cat C13 will be more than enough power for the bus. It can be turned up to 500hp (if equipped correctly). I would stay away from the ZF transmission and pay the extra for the Allison transmission. Good Luck, TomC

[luvrbus]

The ZF transmission in those buses is a auto shift manual transmission fwiw like Tom says go for the Allison

[CrabbyMilton]

I'm wondering if those ZF's would even be worth considering?
MCI doesn't even offer it anymore. Just check their website and you'll see that ALLISON is the sole tranny on both the J4500 and D series.

[lostagain]

Looks to me like a great bus if it could be had for less than 50G. There are so many on the market now, that the prices are down from what they were. All charter operators now run H345s and J4500s not older than 5 years old now, at least in Western Canada where I drive them. The tour operators are demanding late model equipment, so that puts all those Ds on the market, and they are going cheap.

JC

[plyonsMC9]

GREAT information (charter activities & replacing buses, as well as engine info & transmission info)!  Thank you gentlemen  - I'm starting to get excited about this...  

Kind Regards, Phil

[AdamWalkup]

I've had Cats, and would never own one again.  Ask any charter operator, and they will say run, not walk.  The ZF tranny is not much better, as soon as you get a "do not shift" light, you will be totally lost, and good luck even finding someone on the road to look at it.  I would much rather find a low mileage, rust free, southern bus, with the old reliable Series 60, Allison auto.  For conversion purposes, I'd almost rather have a manual shifted 740.  If it won't go into gear, the worst scenario is a broom handle to push it into gear.

I'd also be very careful with the multiplex wiring in these.  A friend of mine with a 9 bus operation just had one fail.  After several weeks of troubleshooting (he has been a bus company owner and master mechanic for at least 25 years, running an MCI fleet) he was ready for a $2,000 tow bill to take it to MCI for another big bill.  Finally they tracked it to a computer in the parcel rack.  This was after driving around it, stuck in the middle of the parking lot for 2 weeks, refusing to start.  After swapping it with the unit from the sister bus, they confirmed the problem.  Had he not had the other bus, it would have been a several thousand dollar computer to "try".  Stick with hard wired for the conversion guys.

Just my 2 cents

[luvrbus]

The ad is a little miss leading on the engine I have never saw a C-13 Cat engine in a older E,J or the DL all I been around had a C-12 Cat engine or the 3176 Cat  I don't think MCI ever offered the C-13 till 2006 or 2007.The C-12 were not Cats best attempt at a highway engine but still a good engine  the 10 speed ZF auto shift I didn't care for in the J's  

[buswarrior]

Beware, this is a re-seller. Those buses were purchased for a fair bit less than these asking prices, and have been on the market for awhile. Talk 'em down?

These are former GO Transit regional commuter coaches. They tried out buying a batch of the automated transmissions, and quickly regretted it. Too slow in acceleration for the point and squirt of heavy big city traffic commuting. Previous and subsequent purchases are Allison automatics, much more suitable to this style of operation.

That being said, a VERY substantial number of charter/line haul coaches are using automated transmissions. The fuel economy is the selling point, and the slower rate of acceleration is acceptable for these markets.

Points in previous posts about electronics in a conversion world must be considered. Busnuts, moving forward, need to be willing to deal with these things.... a daunting task for many.

I am nearby, if further pursuit is being considered, let me know.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[plyonsMC9]

SSSSSSSSssssssssssssssssssstttt.     That is the sound of the air going out of my hope balloon for these coaches. 

BUT very grateful for all the positive AND negative points raised.   You folks are the best!!  Thank you.   But I'm still on the lookout.        

Kind Regards, Phil

[bevans6]

I've ridden on a lot of these coaches, and was well happy for the ride home.  BW has probably driven some of them, or knows them well.  I think my main issue with modern coaches is the multiplex computer systems, when they work all is well, then they break and everything breaks at once.  Cars, trucks, buses, have become truly disposable based on those tiny sensors and computers. 

[TomC]

ZF Freedom 10 or 12spd (depending on how it was programmed) is a automatic shift manual transmission with automatic clutch. Around year 2000, Allison had a strike (or parts were unavailable) and Freightliner used the ZF in trucks. We bought (L.A.Freightliner) all the specialized tools, trained mechanics to work on them. The ZF ended up being so expensive to work on, we would just R&R the transmission and replace with a factory rebuilt unit. They feel like a manual shifting transmission-don't know a driver that liked them. Stick with Allison-you'll be quite pleased. Good Luck, TomC

[easystreet]

Beware if these do turn out to have C12's in them. It is just about at that mileage that some like to have the injector cam follower fail. Problem starts out as a weakly detectable "miss" then the roller pin fails, turns the roller loose and (confirmed by my local Cat dealer) trashes the cam and the block. I have first hand experience with this with one of the trucks in our fleet. I heard the faint miss and went investigating. Caught it before the roller pin failed totally so only ruined the cam. Still lots of $ / labor to replace cam. I can't believe that they haven't changed the design of the pin on the recon units. Good Luck.

[TomC]

Good thing about C12 Caterpillar is they are still making the engine (as Cat is still making the 3406C [very similar to the 3406B]). Good Luck, TomC

[Swadian]

My friend, who is starting a bus line, needs wheelchair lift MCIs and are looking at those. I kindly request that bus converters leave WCL MCIs for those that need to comply with ADA requirements and go after non-WCL units instead, especially since you would have to deal with the door anyway.

Those are former GO Transit vehicles with C13 ACERT and ZF AS Tronic powertrain. I have the VINs for them and you can look up the VINs as well. Definitely not C12.

Thank you for your consideration.

And no, I'm not a bus dealer.