Transmission cooler size

[bevans6]

If you are installing a new transmission cooler, either as part of a new transmission install like I am, or to be an adjunct to help cool an existing install, how do you size it up?

And where the heck do you put it?

Brian

[luvrbus]

If you are installing a new transmission cooler, either as part of a new transmission install like I am, or to be an adjunct to help cool an existing install, how do you size it up?

And where the heck do you put it?

Brian

Call United Transmission in Ca let them size it for you with a Hayden cooler,location on a MCI that is a challenge.You aftercooler is going out today and you are on your own for the block adapter and tool I have never been able to buy the parts for the Kent/Moore I broke.I would buy the water jacket adapter new if I could those are almost impossible to remove from another engine BTDT  the plug in your engine takes a 2 pin spanner and the water jacket adapter takes 3 pin spanner,what ever DD used for a sealant is tough stuff 

[Ed Hackenbruch]

Can't tell you the size since we no longer have the bus, but the PO put 2 of them just to the outside of the radiators. Little concerned when i first saw the setup as i figured that , 1. the airflow thru the radiators would be impeded,  and 2. the heat from the coolers would keep the radiators from cooling as much as possible. Never was a problem, i think that because he used two instead of just one that any negative effects were minimized.

[bevans6]

Clifford, thank you for the cooler, I will do my best to get it installed but if you broke two tools trying to get the plug out I may just end up doing the same thing.

I found a web site that calls out 45Kbtu to 80K btu per hour for a MT- 647 behind 300 hp.  I am closer to 350 but within their torque specification.  They recommended a cooler that was 19 X 24 x 1.5, and 42 - 64 Kbtu, or 24 X 25 X 1.5 and 55 - 86 Kbtu.  My buddy gave me a cooler that was used to cool a compressor head, it is in very good shape and when I drained it the oil was clean and clear.  It is 20 X 24 X 3", double row and double pass.  It has a 10" wide section with 10 tubes that are 1/2" in diameter, down to a common plenum, across and up an identical 10" wide section.  The top and bottom plenums are 2" in diameter, and I make the total of 10 X 1/2" tubes to be the a little bigger in area than a 1.5" diameter tube.  So I feel it will flow quite well, probably flow better than the -12 hose I will use to connect it up.  On the same chart, I found a similar size double row cooler that was spec'd at 90 - 115 Kbtu.  Is going larger to this bigger cooler a potential problem?  Will I have issues with under-cooling.  I was going to mount it inside the engine compartment about where the ac pump was located on an MCI 5C

Brian

[luvrbus]

You also need to use 2 filters 1 on the supply and 1 on the return Allison went to the 2 filters about 15 years ago for longer life on their rebuilt transmission in fact they void the warranty if not used

[Lin]

I have the same set up as Ed-- one in front of each radiator.  It seems to work okay.  It does heat up on long grades in about the same proportion as the engine.  That's when the misters come on to handle both.  The only problem is that, since the system is totally independent of the engine, the transmission does not have the advantage of engine heat in cold weather.  This is not an issue for our location and type of traveling. This could be different for you winter wonderland folks.

[Stormcloud]

Hi, Brian:

When I installed my MT-654 behind the 8v-71NA in my MC-7. I used a Hayden 2305 cooler mounted in a replacement rear door. No additional cooling for the transmission.

One filter mounted on supply line to the transmission. I installed 2 electric fans and a temp gauge on the cooler, but have never had to run the fans. I used some 1" stainless braided lines that I found at a liquidation place....surplus from MCI but I don't know what model.  Temp usually runs 150-160 unless its very warm out, or we are in hilly terrain......only once did I have to stop and let things cool down, after a bunch of 5-6% grades near Globe and ShowLow,AZ.  

I sized the cooler based on information on page 6 of this site.......   http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Hayden/Transmission_Engine_Oil_Coolers.pdf

Likely 25-30 thousand miles now on this setup, and so far, so good!!

Mark

[luvrbus]

I would use 2 filters on the 647 for insurance I got the base and filters numbers from the latest revision here just 2

Allison base 29510923 and filter 29510922 that is high efficiency filter  

AC base PM 16-1  and filter PF 141

I have more  base and filter numbers if you need them but that is the 2 brands I use

I have a lockup valve for that transmission I can send you too if you want one, the draw back to 600 series they only lock up in 3rd and 4th 

[bevans6]

Hi Mark, that is the same site I found to get info from.  I think my cooler that I have is a little smaller than the 2305 in dimensions, thicker, a lot heavier when full, and with about 20% greater capacity.  Mounting it in a door opening is a good idea, but I will play with my inside the compartment idea first.  I should be able to get filter bases either in town, or from my buddy with all the scrap engines.  I like the idea of two filters.  Clifford, it you haven't already sent my cooler, maybe you could put the lock-up valve in.  I'm guessing it's not hard to change out?

Here is my progress.  Remember I made the adaptor with highly accurate registers for the pilot on the torque converter and the ID of the flex plate.  I mounted the flex plate on the adaptor, slipped than onto the torque converter and marked the OD of the TC on the flex plate.  I then cut along the line with a cut-off wheel, and cleaned up down to the line.  Then I mounted the flex plate to the torque converter, bolted it down with a number of bolts, and with a flap wheel in my grinder I cleaned it up to be exactly the OD of the TC, with the outer edge exactly flush.  Then I slipped the ring gear on over the flex plate, and bolted it up.  This is exactly the setup referred to in the sample diagram of the Allison Mechanic's Tips manual, page 17, Figure 2.2, FWIW.  And the original SAE 1 flex plate is the picture above it.  Irony.  That book is on-line as a PDF download.

Next, and here is my question, I plan to tack weld the flex plate to the ring gear so I can move them around as one piece.  Around 4 welds, 1/2" long.  I figure this is OK since the original SAE 1 ring gear was welded to the flex plate after heat treat, so I think I won't cause a problem welding a couple of tacks on it.

Pictures:  Hacked to death SAE 1 ring gear, closeup of weld on SAE 1 RG, and SAE 2 RG and FP mounted on TC.



Pictures of

[luvrbus]

The after cooler and T stat housing are gone,I will ship the valve and hoses later after you test drive lol you may enjoy free wheeling in 1st and 2nd gear, 24v valve right ? 

[daddysgirl]

I'm so glad you posted this. I have a few stupid questions.

Because I haven't jacked her up to get a good look underneath, I don't know where a tranny cooler would be. But I was looking at the link you posted, and it mentioned putting a cooler in with the AC Condenser? I have a hard time seeing anything behind that mammoth oil bath air cleaner, (the 8 stud strip shown on 99% of electrical schematics...that I can't find) but there is a huge tranny filter under there. Where might I look?

Also, my fuel filters are mounted on a setup that looks very similar to the pictures, and I have no fuel switch. Any of you seen a similar setup?

I apologize for the ignorance of these questions, but these systems details are important for me to fully understand.

[bevans6]

I always thought that factory auto trans MCI's had a water - oil cooler along with the engine oil - water cooler, and did not use an external air - oil cooler.  Never looked at one closely, so I don't know.  I am having to put it a quite large air - oil cooler for the trans, because I don't have such a water - oil cooler to use.

Brian

[luvrbus]

Most did have a double cooler for the transmission,the military used a air to oil or the inline cooler you see both but never the engine mounted double cooler on a military engine 

[bevans6]

When I got my NATO engine it had a humongous oil cooler on the side, a double canister affair that had to be 15 inches long.  You can see one of the two canisters in this picture., the other is hidden below the engine dolly.  I believe, being a tank engine, that the engine drove a hydraulic pump, and this helped cool the pump.  My engine specification was used in the M110 self propelled howitzer, among other things.  They had lots of different cooler arrangements, but in my bus it's a single pass single cooler, since I had the manual transmission originally.  First pic is the engine when I picked it up, second is when it was going back into the bus, you might be able to see the single cooler behind the exhaust plumbing.

Brian

[luvrbus]

The cylinder cooler was to cool the engine oil those are not your average 6 or 7 gal oil pans did you use the military pan looks like it lol oil suppliers love you