OT: Computer Crash & Recovery

[RJ]

I know we just had a discussion about OT threads, but I'm going to post this anyway for two reasons:  I got great help last time, and it might help another busnut in the future.  So here goes:

A week or so ago I asked for some help copying over Outlook Express files to my new computer. Thanks to all for your help and suggestions, the task was completed.

Now another interesting glitch has arisen. Before I was able to copy all my other files off the old system, it hung up. Frozen screen, no response to keyboard or mouse. Only way to shut off was to kill the power. Now when it boots, it locks up at the welcome screen. Hmmmm. . .

OK, so boot in Safe Mode. Locks up when you try to click on Administrator. Hmmmm. . .

OK, so boot in Safe Mode with command prompt. Back to good old DOS! In this mode, was able to access both hard drives, view the directories, programs, etc. (Took awhile for the operator's memory to remember the various DOS commands to do this kind of stuff - forget how spoiled we've become with the GUI interface!)

So, the hard drives are working fine, seems to be a problem with Windows itself. A phone call to the B-I-L, who's a techie-guru at Intel, and the suggestion is to pop the old drives out and plug them into the new machine, copy off the data, then reinstall Windows with the recovery disks that came with the unit when it was new.

Oops. . . old drives are ATA, new machine has SATA, no ribbon cables inside at all. Solution to that was an external ATA HD case, into a USB port. Bingo! We're in business!

EXCEPT:

In "Documents & Settings", the folder for all of my stuff was password-protected. All the other users were not, so their data was easily transferred. When I try to access my folder, I get the "Access Denied" message. Hmmmmm. . .

So, I'm stuck right now. Can't access any of my files, both important data or, even more important, my saved bus pics and bus conversion BBS's conversion tips.

Can't seem to find a password log-in screen, but there's got to be a way around that. Any ideas? Any work-arounds? Would going back into DOS possibly be the answer?

Suggestions are VERY welcome. Can either be posted here, or PM me by clicking on my name above.

Thanks!!

[HighTechRedneck]

I had this happen a while back.  I found this article on Microsoft's support site to be helpful:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/308418#3

You will need to set up a login for Microsoft Live if you don't already have one in order to view the article.  But that is simple and free.

In summary, boot in safe mode with GUI.  Log in as Administrator.  Navigate to the top level folder that you want access to.  Right click it >> Properties >> Security Tab.  Use the resulting dialogs to give full access to the user of your choice and apply the change to all subfolders and files.

Reboot into regular mode and login as the user that you assigned access to.  You should now be able to access and copy the files.

[RJ]

Thanks, Redneck, for the link.

Problem is the system will freeze the keyboard and mouse while trying to boot using F8 with any option other than "Safe Mode with Command Prompt", which takes you directly to DOS.

BTW, this is WinXP Pro, fully updated.

I do have a couple of additional questions:

1. When working in Windows (any version), when you create a folder, be it for pictures, data, or a program, does it create a directory in DOS underneath the GUI interface?

2. Does anybody know if, when you have a password, the files become hidden? I know where the data files I'm looking for are located, so I'm thinking that by using DOS, I can simply use the copy command - if they're not hidden.


The plot thickens. . .

[Dallas]

Russ,
Win XP as well as Win2K doesn't use DOS as an underlying operating system like W98, ME and W95 do. It uses what is considered a "psuedo" DOS which really isn't the same thing. It doesn't have the functionality of DOS 6.22.
Another problem could be the file system you are using. If it's NTFS there is a high probability of good security inherent in the system, which is what you paid for in the first place, what good would it be if you had encrypted files and it was easy to break the encryption?


You'll play heck trying to get those files off with out doing it the correct way. HOWEVER>>>>>>

If the Mouse and Keyboard are making the computer freeze up at a certain point, it sounds like you may have a conflict as soon as the machine is activating it's driver files.

Is it possible you have, A.) a bad battery in the Bios causing the machine to lose touch with reality? B.) a bad keyboard (another thought, are the keyboard and/or mouse USB?), or a bad keyboard controller. Try putting a known good PS2 keyboard and mouse on instead of the unknowns.

Check the Bios and see if "Legacy USB" is enabled.
You may also want to try putting the Bios back to a default and see what happens.
One other thing you may try is starting the computer without the mouse or keyboard hooked up at all. That may not be possible, but it may give you a clean start the next time you start it.

I'd like to help more, but it's hard to diagnose a computer from a distance.

[HighTechRedneck]

As Dallas said, the command prompt is no longer a full DOS installation.  The files and folders it can see are the same ones Windows sees.  If I recall correctly, there is even a difference in the Safe Mode Command Prompt (SMCP) and the full Windows Command Prompt (WCP) window.  WCP sees full long file names and SMCP only sees the truncated 8.3 file/folder names.  For example, the "Documents and Settings" foler would look like "Docume~1" in SMCP.  The problem is that the permissions are still in effect in both Command Prompts so if a file is protected in Windows, it is also protected at the prompt.

I don't remember in SMCP if you can see the names of protected folders but I do know you can't list, copy or modify the files in them.

Now for some good news, I reckon you could use some by now.    The instructions I was giving for changing the file permissions were for use with your new system and using the external drive case approach.  As long as the folders were just password protected and not encrypted that should work.  Since encryption requires selecting a checkbox in the properties window, you may not have done that and you are in luck.

If they are encrypted as well, then as far as I know, your only hope would be to get the original computer to boot.  Since it is making it to the welcome screen, and it functions in SMCP, I'm a little less concerned about the bios image or battery.  Since it also locks up when you try the Adminstrator login at the Safe Mode GUI, I agree with Dallas that it is likely a mouse or keyboard problem, especially if using a USB mouse or keyboard.  This could be a physical problem (damage, failure or low battery in mouse or keyboard) or it could be a driver problem.  If you are using a USB keyboard/mouse or a PS2 style with extra functionality (i.e. Internet Keyboard, Media featured keyboard, scroll mouse, track ball, etc.), then I would try using a very basic PS/2 keyboard/mouse.

One more thought, and maybe this should have been my first one - How long are you letting it sit when trying to boot into the GUI Safe Mode admin account?  On a troubled system, this can take a long time.  I have seen it take over 15 minutes to get from the login to the Safe Mode desktop.

hth

[RJ]

More info:

Hard drive I'm trying to retrieve the data off of is in NTFS format.  It is currently residing in an external drive case, connected to the new computer via a USB cable.

When using the Windows Command Prompt, I can find my folder under the "documents and settings" directory on this HD.  However, when I ask the machine to "change directory" to my folder, I get "Access Denied". . .

Will be away from this madness Saturday, but will attack the problem again Sunday pm.

Thanks Dallas and Redneck for the tips.  I do have a good working original  PS/2 keyboard available, so will try that, as well as a wired (vs wireless) mouse.



Another question:  Think it might be possible to reinstall WinXP-Pro without having to reformat the drive?  I wonder if the recovery discs that came with the machine have that option?  Was thinking today that it might solve the problem. . .

Thoughts?

[HighTechRedneck]

Since you already have the drive in an external case, and can see the folder names but are having permissions problems accessing the files, I would just follow the safe mode admin routine I outlined using the new computer.  Change the file/folder permissions to give full access to your main user on the new PC.  Then reboot, login in as that user and copy the files at will.

Then if you wish to find out if the other computer will still work, put the drive back in it and tryout the wired keyboard/mouse.

Reinstalling Windows from the CD will lose the contents of the My Documents and Program Files folders unless you install it as a separate installation.  Then you will still have the same file access issue to overcome.  (been there, done that).

[Dallas]

Be careful using the factory restore discs!

I know that HP and Dell usually give you the option of saving the files on your hard drive as opposed to overwriting everything, but I've seen some of them screw up the reinstall so badly that the owner was better off wiping the hard drive, and eventually did just that.

If you are using a WINXP disc, it gives you an option of trying to repair the installation through a couple of different methods. If you go that route, use the option to replace the registry and reinstall the drivers. Make sure you name the computer the same as it was before and Name your user EXACTLY the same as the previous installation, using the same password.

Let us know how it goes!
Dallas

[HighTechRedneck]

Be careful using the factory restore discs!

I know that HP and Dell usually give you the option of saving the files on your hard drive as opposed to overwriting everything, but I've seen some of them screw up the reinstall so badly that the owner was better off wiping the hard drive, and eventually did just that.

If you are using a WINXP disc, it gives you an option of trying to repair the installation through a couple of different methods. If you go that route, use the option to replace the registry and reinstall the drivers. Make sure you name the computer the same as it was before and Name your user EXACTLY the same as the previous installation, using the same password.

Let us know how it goes!
Dallas

Guess I haven't seen the restore disks that give the save data option, but it sounds like they probably shouldn't. 

Assuming the System Restore monitoring was turned on in the old system, the Windows restore options might work, but without a backup copy of the data, I would be very nervous trying it as there is a risk of losing the data permanently.  I would try recovering the data to the other computer first since you already have the disk into a portable drive case.

[Dallas]

Guess I haven't seen the restore disks that give the save data option, but it sounds like they probably shouldn't. 

Assuming the System Restore monitoring was turned on in the old system, the Windows restore options might work, but without a backup copy of the data, I would be very nervous trying it as there is a risk of losing the data permanently.  I would try recovering the data to the other computer first since you already have the disk into a portable drive case.

I agree, I don't like those restore discs that offer to save your data either, it just seems they never do work the way I want them too.

[RJ]

Everyone -

Got home late Sunday, so didn't have as much time to play with the machine as I wanted, but here's the latest:

Took the original HD out of the external case, and re-installed it in the old machine.  Plugged in a known working mouse and keyboard, and turned on the system.

System booted to welcome screen, albeit very slowly.  No mouse function, but was able to scroll to my user name using the arrow keys on the keyboard.  Was also able to log in, and bring up my desktop, again, very, very slowly.

Using the arrow and tab keys, was able to get into Control Panel, and User Accounts.  Removed my password, and exited.  Went back to Start, and shut down the machine.  Again, very slow process. . .

Gave machine a minute (actually timed it!), then restarted.

Same situation: No mouse function, system very slow, response to keyboard extremely slow.  Hmmmm. . .

Shut system down.  Popped HD out of machine, and put back into external drive case.  Plugged it into USB port on new machine, and went surfing with WE.  OK, found my folder under "documents & settings" , but when clicking on it to access, got the "access denied" message again. 

By the time this took place, it was time for bed, so I called it a night.

Now, an interesting tidbit:  When the HD was in the old machine, and between the Welcome screen and my Desktop screen, an error message box pops up, saying "Access Denied, Drive C:"  Now the weird thing is that this message box has a Norton Utilities heading on it.  Yes, I have Norton SystemWorks on the drive - wonder if it's the culprit?

I'm going to try a couple of other things, too.  First, I've got another HD here that has Windows ME on it (it resides in an external drive case too - use it for temp storage - was the "C" drive on the system I bought in 2000).  I'm going to pop it into the old machine and see if the machine boots ME and operates normally (as normal as ME can operate!  LOL)

The other thing I'm going to try will have to wait until the weekend.  I'm going up to Roseville, CA for my mom's 90th B'day.  My B-I-L is a techie-guru at Intel.  We're going to pop this problem-child HD into one of his spare computers, and see if it boots normally in that machine, or still glitches.

So that's the latest.  Any ideas or suggestions are welcome!

[Hartley]

Well,

Russ, I fee for ya on the upgrade probpems.

I know this may not help this time around,

Get NORTON off your system...( Personal experience is they cause more problems than they cure! ) sorry....

All hardware and bios settings for hard drive are not equal. A lot of times an IDE drive or (ATA) drive will not be properly detected in bios for the correct settings like the old system that they were removed from. In most cases just making
a system motherboard or video change can wreek havoc which may or may not be recoverable from.

I have been using a software package called " PC Relocator" by Aloha Bob software. I think the company name has changed now though. It will transfer pretty much all of the programs and settings from one computer to another either through a backup, external drive or even network. I have used it moving from win98 to win2000 pro and windows XP pro and only had a few minor things to reinstall by hand.

A week long transfer task was reduced to about 2 hours with 80 to 95 % success and not having to fight the hardware
or use rights problems.

I don't like trying to move hardware since most of the stuff that's 2 or more years old is cranky about being used with the newer main boards and faster bus speeds if you can get it to work at all.

I probably should have thought about telling you about pc relocator earlier but I didn't realize that you were moving hardware too...

Dave....

[RJ]

Dr Dave -

See your emailbox listed in your profile.