Scenicrusier 278 - engine cradle

[DandM]

Hi everyone...
Mike here again with another question – Scenicrusier engine cradle
Been doing some work in Scenic 278 this year and wanted to take the oil pan off to checkout some dents I found in it while doing some other work underneath the rear of my bus. Found out that I couldn't remove the oil pan as it was trapped by the engine cradle. And then looking further, I found several places where the cradle had been modified over the years. I didn't like the oil pan being trapped and felt that the cradle mods were not done in a safe/satisfactory manner. So, I want to remove the engine/trans assembly and build a new, safer, stronger cradle. So, finally a question...
Scenicrusier engine cradle – does anyone have pictures of a cradle, especially showing the bulkhead connections? I do have a old shop manual, but the pics it has are somewhat blurred after numerous photocopier copies. And they don't show the bulkhead end of a cradle. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike

[Jeff Willard]

ahh yes, the reengineering again. sigh. The cradle doesn't actually "Attach" to the firewall. Gravity holds it in. There is a special socket and pin casting on each side. Sometimes you'll find big bolts in there. Sometimes you'll find big pins, sometimes nothing. They're tough to see, especially on the left side as the primary fuel filter and the power steering reservoir are right above it and all the leaks, drips and slop has probably covered it in 2 inches of, what seems like, tar.
Do you know how the hangers work at the rear? The stamped steel "star" nut is a lock nut. Screw it DOWN. PB Blaster, a little heat and a mallet will usually get it to move. Then the upper cast "nut" will unscrew UP. The upper one is brass and it's a weird ultra coarse thread. 2 turns or so and it's off. Again, a dead blow mallet works pretty well on them.

Lastly, how you gonna' hold it up? GM made a special dolly that would roll under the cradle and it had 4 Wagner Screw Jacks mounted to it. If you look under the cradle you'll see two steel rings welded to the diagonal supports. That's where to top of the front jacks went. The rear two went on the structure in front of the mufflers.  I've heard two guys could pull a motor before it had a chance to cool off. I actually have one of the original dollies and it's quite a piece. Looks like something you'd find in a train yard with steam locomotives. I also know of guys that have pulled them with a fork lift though.

When you're pulling it, here are a few pointers. Jack up the coach solidly before you do anything. If it's a runner, disconnect the linkage on the leveling valves and take it all the way up. Then use a couple of long railroad ties or real good 4X6 fence posts, (or similar) and put them under the firewall bulkhead. Then let the air down. Jack up the left side tag and remove both tires. Now you have access to the shift linkage (Assuming it's still a 4 speed) the clutch and the driveshaft. Those driveshaft flange nuts are a Bit$%&CH! Now you can disconnect lines and wiring. Once it's all untangled, put your dolly, fork lift or what ever under the cradle and carefully take the weight off the hangers. Knock those loose. Now raise the front. You need to raise it just enough for the pins to clear the sockets. If you go too high the radiator will get tangled up in the perforated aluminum in the overhead. Now carefully back it out, unhooking the stuff you forgot to unhook earlier.

Another method it to jack the engine and cradle up and pull the bus away from it. Never tried it.... don't plan too. FYI... those handy rings on the front will break, bend and tear off if you try to use them.
I hope all this helps. Contact me if you have questions. By the way.... where are you?

[Dave5Cs]

Jeff very nice write up. I don't even have a scenic but held my interest. Now that would be good in Gary's magazine with pics for the Newbies. Maybe keep someone from getting hurt too.
Dave5Cs

[kyle4501]

Jeff covered the basics very well. The bulkhead mounts are not symmetrical, so that adds to the mystery of the elusive retaining bolts.

Best thing to do is start using PB blaster on all the connections.

As for the new cradle - I'd recommend getting yours out, removing the engine, & cleaning it very well. Then look for the cracks - then you will know where to start with the redesign.

Good luck!

[Jeff Willard]

Yea Dave. Just call me the James Patterson of Scenicruisers.
Kyle makes a good point about cracks. Very common and more common is that they were always pooley fixed. I had one where they laid a bolt in the crack and welded it to the cradle. sigh.....
You might want to install a proper trailer hitch receiver while you can get to it. My coach has a bumper bolt on type that was attached to an aluminum bumper.

[DandM]

Thank you Jeff, Dave, & Kyle for responding.
Jeff – That was one heck of an explanation about the removal and cradle design. I've heard about the front (bulkhead) connections and one really bad story about a bad road, going too fast, and somehow the engine jumped off the front connector and landed on the highway while the bus rolled to a stop some distance ahead. Fact or fiction, I don't know, but it did get my attention. So you know, my bus has been modified – 8V92TA, 5 speed Allison, Upper deck from stairs to engine bulkhead lowered to level with foot channel, air throttle. Numerous other changes. And my location is Beloit, Kansas.  Anyway, do you have any pics of your engine removal dolly? Any pics of the sockets and pins you mentioned? There was one guy who posted videos on youtube showing removal of engine/trans from a Scenic. I tried to stop the video and then move forward a frame or two to try and see the bulkhead sockets/pins but his videos just didn't show that. It's dang cold around here this time of year (currently 20 deg) to do too much outside underneath the back of a Scenic. But it's not like it will be 20 deg until April. There will be some opportunities to get work done. I'm hoping to get the engine/trans assembly out and in the shop, degreased, small items repaired or upgraded, new cradle built and reinstalled by May-June. We will just see how that goes with all the other things that are on the 'LIST.' 
Dave – Thanks for joining the conversation.
Kyle – Good to hear from you again. I keep getting knocked down, but my doctors always seem to have a pill for that. Do you still have all your hounds close by? I really want to get 278 out on the blacktop and to run on Route 66 with some of the other Hounds.
Thanks everyone,
Mike

[Oonrahnjay]

     Is it possible to get good-shape cradle from a bus that's being scrapped for parts and start from scratch?  I have never touched a Scenic but it seems to me that you might want to look at the possibilities of making what you need (and making it right) rather than patching up old damage and other people's mistakes.
     Just a thought.   

[DandM]

Hi Everyone...
Thanks Bruce H. for responding.
I should have stated this earlier and maybe more clearly. I don't intend to rework the old,  original engine cradle assembly. I just need it out for measurements so I can build a newer, stronger, safer cradle assembly. The new design must include the capability to remove the oil pan for lower engine maintenance and service. Better design for a swingout radiator. And provisions for towing. I wan to somewhat over design/build this engine cradle assembly so I only have to do it once and know that it is the best/safest it can be.
I forgot to mention in any of the other posts, but I have removed the original 4501 radiator and had an Eagle 10 style radiator installed. It just barely fits thru the original side opening. I think I remember measuring the new radiator and it was something like 47% larger than the original radiator. But it currently does not have the swing out capability. Very difficult to service anything on that side of the engine.
Thanks,
Mike

[Jeff Willard]

Yes, TJ in Illinois did a good job of documenting his engine pull and clutch repair. He built a dolly and learned a lot in the process.

I'll do you one better than a Dolly Picture. Interesting story too.... I found this CAD drawing somewhere on the web. Being a computer guy and programmer I wanted to pay the guy that spent the time doing this drawing, if I was going to build one. So I called him. His number was on the drawing. Turns out, he lived an hour away from me and said "I still have the dolly I made the drawing from. You want to buy it?" Well duh...... yea!!!!

Rolling ahead to today.... My Dolly is right now in Iowa where another Scenicruiser owner, AND another Jeff... is making a number of them for himself and for sale. If you're interested, private message me and I'll hook you up.

I never heard that story about the engine coming out. Not sure it can be much more than a good story though. That being said.... I LOVE good stories.

A 92 shouldn't be much different than a 71 as far as pulling it but the transmission.... that's another deal. Depending on the oil pan that's on it it could be a problem. If it was put in without removing the engine it probably won't clear the bottom of the engine bulkhead. If it WAS installed by pulling the engine, and the installer was a butcher... like many seem to be.... then you have a lot more work ahead beside fixing the cradle. In order to get the Allison oil pan to clear, they may have taken a torch and just cut the bottom out of the engine bulkhead and the structure that not only supports the engine, but also holds the rear suspension to the bus. I have one in my shop now like that. You might find May or June is "Optimistic". Just Sayin'

As for the floor lowering. Was it done well? Are the bulkheads properly supported in the middle, front to rear? Did they cut into the extrusions that are riveted to the bulkheads? Does your coach have the reinforcing plates between the windows and on the sides forward of the drive wheels?

I'm sure this thread makes all you Prevost and MCI guys just want to run out and buy a 60 year old, 4 million mile and seriously abused coach, to turn into your dream motorhome, doesn't it?

I'm having some issues uploading the CAD drawing It's too big apparently. Private Message me and I'll email it to you.

[DandM]

Here is a link to an older post about my move from Colorado to Kansas

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12503.0

[DandM]

Jeff, thanks for making me think about the automatic trans situation. That has really got me wondering if it's going to add more complexity to the removal process. It's currently snowing here, but I do have some large refrigerator boxes all cut up. I may wait till tomorrow but my curiosity may bet the best of me. And I'll see if I can figure out this private message thing.
Thanks,
Mike

[B_K]

Yea Dave. Just call me the James Patterson of Scenicruisers.
Kyle makes a good point about cracks. Very common and more common is that they were always pooley fixed. I had one where they laid a bolt in the crack and welded it to the cradle. sigh.....
You might want to install a proper trailer hitch receiver while you can get to it. My coach has a bumper bolt on type that was attached to an aluminum bumper.

LOL I had to just shake my head and laugh at that one. About a month ago the fuel pump went out on our '94 Chevy G30 van (1 ton 15 passenger van). Well to replace the pump I had to drop the tank, because that is where it is.
Well in order to remove the tank I had to remove the trailer hitch which required removing the rear bumper as some of the bolts for the bumper wear holding the hitch on.
Well after that I tried to remove the 2 forward bolts (1 on each side) and could not budge them with the impact.
So I broke out my big handy dandy 36" Snap-on breaker bar. Well the only thing that broke was my pride as they still didn't budge with all I could put to it and even with a 4' cheater bar & both feet against the rear end for leverage.

SO I got out my pen light and examined closer and found those bolts had been spot welded on. (good weld too I might add!)
So out came the cut off tool and I cut the edges where the welds were.
Much to my surprise and then horror when I realized just how many heavy loads I'd towed with this van those two bolts were LAG bolts that they spot welded to keep them from backing out!
Still shake my head every time I think about it!
  BK 

[kyle4501]

Kyle – Good to hear from you again. I keep getting knocked down, but my doctors always seem to have a pill for that. Do you still have all your hounds close by?

Afraid not, I gave up that dream when I found a Newell that was almost EXACTLY what I wanted & was ready to use NOW 
Bonus is it was less than I would have spent on parts for the Scenic conversion.

I still have some parts for sale tho . . . .

[kyle4501]

     Is it possible to get good-shape cradle from a bus that's being scrapped for parts

Nope, not from my experience.

After looking at almost a dozen, I have decided that it doesn't take much to hold the engine in if those cradles worked. 

[Oonrahnjay]

Is it possible to get good-shape cradle from a bus that's being scrapped for parts and start from scratch? 

Nope, not from my experience.
After looking at almost a dozen, I have decided that it doesn't take much to hold the engine in if those cradles worked.   

         Yeah, Mike has already said he's interesting in building a modded cradle from scratch, but I was kind of afraid of that.  Too bad, but it's been a lonnnggg time since a Scenic was made.