GVWR Toad Question

zimmysurprise · April 03, 2016, 05:56:14 AM

My retirement plans envision dragging a car behind my 4108. I realize it will take some fabrication to put a hitch on it, but towing 4 wheels down appears to be the best way to minimize tongue weight. I've read plenty of posts on this site about the subject and plan on using supplemental braking. The reason I'm posting now is that I'm in the market for a new car this summer. I've created a short list of low weight vehicles from the dinghy towing guide.

My question is does the car weight have to fit under the bus GVWR to be legal, and/or does supplemental braking affect the rules? As I continue to convert the bus, I've kept an eye on weight and I'm sitting at about 28,000 now fully loaded. The cars I'm considering are between 2500-3000. My GVWR is listed at 30,000 which puts me right at the limit. I'm not too concerned that this is unsafe for the bus, just what the law might say. Thanks.

bevans6 · April 03, 2016, 08:02:24 AM

GVWR is for the bus itself. Any tongue weight would contribute to the GVW. The combination of the towing vehicle and the towed vehicle is called the gross combined weight. Many vehicles have a GCWR, which is a manufacturer's recommendation for the maximum combined weight of both vehicles, buses usually don't have a GCWR. In most jurisdictions, the GCWR is considered a recommendation, not a rule. In many jurisdictions the GVWR is also considered a recommendation, not a rule, and things like axle weight ratings are the legal restrictions. Not always - for example in British Columbia, Canada, the GVWR and the GCWR are taken from being manufacturers recommendations and written into law by reference to the manufacturers numbers.

What this means for you is that your braking system and drive system is designed to accomodate your 30K GVWR, so if you were to exceed that you would be well advised to use a towed vehicle braking system. I use electric brakes on a dolly, and on my trailer. I wouldn't think you would be breaking any laws by towing a vehicle that puts you over GVWR with the combined weight.

DoubleEagle · April 03, 2016, 09:30:40 AM

Quote from: bevans6 on April 03, 2016, 08:02:24 AM
GVWR is for the bus itself. Any tongue weight would contribute to the GVW. The combination of the towing vehicle and the towed vehicle is called the gross combined weight. Many vehicles have a GCWR, which is a manufacturer's recommendation for the maximum combined weight of both vehicles, buses usually don't have a GCWR. In most jurisdictions, the GCWR is considered a recommendation, not a rule. In many jurisdictions the GVWR is also considered a recommendation, not a rule, and things like axle weight ratings are the legal restrictions. Not always - for example in British Columbia, Canada, the GVWR and the GCWR are taken from being manufacturers recommendations and written into law by reference to the manufacturers numbers.

What this means for you is that your braking system and drive system is designed to accomodate your 30K GVWR, so if you were to exceed that you would be well advised to use a towed vehicle braking system. I use electric brakes on a dolly, and on my trailer. I wouldn't think you would be breaking any laws by towing a vehicle that puts you over GVWR with the combined weight.

I agree, but check Ohio's rules, as you have to satisfy them first. I would also have a rear view camera to keep an eye on it, as you will not see much of it in your side view mirrors. If you use a braking system for the toad, make sure it is adjusted carefully so that it is in tune with the bus braking, you don't want to wear out your brakes and tires on the car helping out the bus braking. You will have to plan ahead where ever you go, you can not back up a towed car very far, unless it is on a trailer. Do not forget to take the car out of park, release the parking brake, or disconnect the driveshaft, if that is necessary. I was once behind a diesel RV that had forgotten. I saw two black streaks on the road, and smoke up ahead, and the smell of burnt rubber. By the time I caught up to him, he was already off the road with two smoking flat tires and a helpful trucker spraying a fire extinguisher.

TomC · April 03, 2016, 12:33:46 PM

You might want to look at that GVW again. My bus is at 13,000lb front and 23,000lb rear for a total of 36,000lbs. Good Luck, TomC

HB of CJ · April 03, 2016, 01:24:44 PM

Do the Feds have a minimum towed weight limit before brakes are required? What kind of brakes? Does the vital necessity of being able to back up your rig, (even a little bit) important to you?

Consider a nicer two axle trailer with brakes? Might solve or sidestep lots of legal, safety, practical or other reasons when towing a toad. I do not know if the Bus Conversion GVWR counts.

Some feel the slight perceived disadvantage with RV space length/cost barely enters into it. The necessity of being able to back up to save your life or safely tow your towed does enter into it.

Jim Eh. · April 03, 2016, 01:38:20 PM

As said any tongue weight added to the bus would be added on for your GVWR of your bus. It is unlikely you have a combine weight rating on your V.I.N. plate for your bus. I am not sure the buses that were set up from factory to haul cargo trailers even had a GCWR listed.
The requirement for active braking system on your toad has more to do with the weight of your "trailer" (your toad).
In my jurisdiction if the trailer (or toad) is around 2000 lbs or more it must have functioning brakes on all wheels plus a break away braking system with the usual safety restraint system on the hitch.

zimmysurprise · April 03, 2016, 01:42:04 PM

Thanks for the responses. I think a camera is vital regardless of what you're pulling, it's unlikely you could even see a car hauler back there. Tom- latest weigh slip from Cat Scales is 11,000/17,000 for 28,000. GVWR on bus plate is 30,000 with 12,000 on the front. HB- a car hauler did enter the court of consideration, but was quickly dispelled since the experts on this site say GMs can only tolerate minimal tongue weight. A dolly would be the only other way, but I trust those less than flat towing. What is the percentage of S&S or Bus Conversions that use a tandem car hauler? Krank- I've seen brakes for 2000-3000 in what I've read as well.

Dave5Cs · April 03, 2016, 02:23:44 PM

Cali is anything over 1500 lbs has to have a braking system. We have a NSA surge brake and it works really well. Just a cable and an insert into the 2 inch receiver. Bus stops and a lever goes up and pull the cable through a tube you put in and the cable connects to the brake peddle arm.
Dave5Cs