DD TranSynd ... stuff you may wish to know

[eagle19952]

Worthwhile thoughts collected from the internet, stuff you may wish to know.


http://www.demanddetroit.com/pdf/vocations/coolant-selections.pdfTranSynd

Thomas Johnson
Former Allison Transmission Fluids Engineer
Avon, IN
"Offering Professional Lubrication Engineering Advice"
Hi Folks,

My name is Tom Johnson and I was the Transmission Fluids Engineer at Allison Transmission from 1990 until I retired in 2009. I developed, tested and approved TranSynd and also wrote Allison fluid specifications including TES-389 and TES-295.

Please let me know if you have any questions about transmission fluids, TranSynd, Allison specifications, engine oils or oil analysis. I'm here to help you understand more about oils and fluids.
Calendar time and accumulated mileage means something to engine oil and transmission fluid lives. What really matters is the accumulation of mechanical and thermal stresses and whether or not the oil or fluid becomes contaminated. These things are all measurable.

Engine oils and transmission fluids contain many different types of additives. Some are more stable than others. Also, the base oil type enters into the life factor. In addition to contamination, which can put an end to oil or transmission fluid in a hurry, the chief factors in determining how long oils and fluids last are: Oxidation Resistance and Viscosity Stability. These properties are dependent upon the oil or fluid formulation and are heavily dependent on both the additives package and base oils. TranSynd, for instance, is designed to withstand a tremendous amount of thermal and mechanical stresses. Just because something says "synthetic" .... it doesn't mean it's what you need. I can explain that in another post.

Here's the bottom line: Owners can use elapsed time or distance traveled to set maintenance intervals; however, I recommend oil/fluid analysis to determine if, and when, engine oils and transmission fluids need to be changed. This is because you actually measure the fluid parameters which tells you how much longer the oil or fluid can be safely run without damage to the engine or transmission.

I developed TranSynd because at one time Allison recommended the use of either engine oils or DEXRON-III fluids. That was a problem that I inherited back in 1990 when I took the position. I determined that engine oils couldn't stand up to heat enough to give sufficient drain intervals and DEXRON-III fluids thinned out too soon. TranSynd fixed both problems. You'll see that Allison no longer recommends either engine oils or DEXRON-III fluids in the 1000, 2000, 3000 or 4000 Series transmission. I strongly recommend TranSynd for all Allison transmissions as it will give very long drain intervals and protects the transmission more than any other product on the ATF market.

Someone will ask this question at some point. What about Amsoil ATF. It's not approved to the TES-295 specification so do not use it because Allison will not cover the warranty. It may be the best fluid ever; but, it's not been tested to the TES-295 specification so no one knows whether it would pass or not. Don't be mislead by folks stating that the Amsoil product is the same as TranSynd or that the performance is equal because, again, it's not been tested so, like I said, no one knows the answer to that. Amsoil never submitted their product to me for testing.

About TranSynd vs. non-synthetics (conventionally refined oils).
Non-synthetic fluids are typically made from Group I, Group II and/or Group III base oils. TranSynd uses only Group IV (PAO) base oils in its formulation. For your review, here's a link to a product sheet from Petro-Canada on Base Oil Groups: http://www.canadianoil.se/Bulletiner...cifikation.pdf or you can visit www.api.org to learn more.

Note: Engine oils are now only recommended in Allison military and off-highway (5000-9000 Series) transmissions.

Here are the links:

Link to my Technical Paper on oils: http://www.jglubricantservices.com/d...on%20Sheet.pdf

Link to my seminar slides: http://www.jglubricantservices.com/b...um-Slides1.pdf

First, yes they are completely mixable in any ratio because DEXRON-III and DEXRON-VI fluids are very similar from a formulation standpoint. And, DEXRON-VI fluids are far more stable in friction properties, viscosity retention and oxidation resistance than the older DEXRON-III fluids. So, in essence, DEXRON-VI fluids have better performance than the older DEXRON-III fluids. However, there's a much bigger issue when it comes to use in older Allison products (pre-2007). DEXRON-VI fluids, because of their upgraded additives system (specifically the friction components), are far more aggressive toward older Viton seal materials used in older Allison transmissions like your HT700 Series. You take the risk of getting hardening and cracking of the Viton seals given enough time at higher temperatures and it's impossible to predict when this will occur. This is why Allison does not recommend DEXRON-VI fluids in any of their transmissions. We found an incompatibility issue with older Viton seal materials and that's why we (I) wrote the TES-389 specification. It "weeds out" DEXRON-III fluids that have similar seal incompatibility issues to DEXRON-VI and approves those that are less aggressive.

It's best to stick with TranSynd, or one of the other TES-295 approved fluids listed on the Allison website. You can find the approved fluids list at: http://allisontransmission.com/servi...jsp?ThisPage=3

You can also use any of the TES-389 approved fluids but your time between drains will be significantly reduced vs. TES-295 fluids. So, in my humble opinion, you're a whole lot of money ahead to just bite the bullet and change over to TranSynd (or a TES-295 approved fluid). You'll be pretty much fill for life on the HT755 with yearly oil analysis and filter changes as required by Allison.

See (fixed) http://www.allisontransmission.com/parts-service/fluid-filter-calculator for a calculator to determine your HT oil and filter change intervals based on fluid type. Note: Oil analysis can be used to stretch drain intervals safely out past these "default" time/distance based recommendations.
__________________

My (former) HT-755 had been converted to TranSynd in 2004, and I had it changed a bit over 4 years later in 2009 at a time when the output seal had to be replaced, so it is now at 4 years. It is routinely heated to, or near, 300 for short durations during retarder use, so I'm asking the question for the benefit of the coach's new owner.

Fluid looked very clean, but I did not do any testing.
DonB,

The TES-295 specification includes an Oxidation Test that's run for 600 hours at 330F. And if that's not harsh enough, we churn the fluid and blow air through it to try to get it to breakdown. This test doesn't do much to harm the fluid. In fact, we (Product Engineering) ran TranSynd in 100 Waste Management refuse trucks across the US for 4 years. At the end of the test, we collected some from one of the trucks and ran it another 1000 hours in an Engineering Test Department durability test with no problems. That's a good measure of just how strong TranSynd's performance is. So, the new owner will be just fine. If needed, he/she could use our Advanced Oil Analysis Kit to test it to get the current condition. I'm betting it's still just as good as it was 4 years ago. But, it's best to test to be sure there's no signs of a cooler leak or any other contamination. The fluid itself should be good but I recommend checking it once a year to be sure there's no contamination going on.

PS: Here's a copy of TES-295 specification:
http://www.allisontransmission.com/s...&DownloadID=16

I recommend a back to back drain and refill. Do not use any sort of flushing unit as you could risk getting a cooling hose leak or, worse yet, damage the transmission pump if you starve it for oil.

You're saying engine; but, do you mean the transmission? Water will boil off during normal operation. In fact, I've rarely seen water above 0.1% (1000 ppm) in any oil sample unless there's a significant internal cooling circuit leak.

Here's the back to back changeover method that I recommend to everyone. It's costly, but in most cases you only do it once during the coaches life time.
Drain the transmission
Refill it with TranSynd
Drive the RV for 1/2 hour to warm and circulate the fluid
Drain it again and change filters
Refill it with TranSynd
Check fluid level in idle with engine running and parked on a flat surface.
llison says even a trace of glycol is bad. Since most test kits don't actually measure glycol content in transmission fluids, we instead look at Na (Sodium) and K (Potassium). The glycol in the coolant tends to attack the bonding agents used to attach the friction disks to the friction plates. The damage typically looks like flaking or erosion of the clutch friction plate surface. Oil analysis can detect a coolant leak in the very early stages by measuring the Sodium (Na) and Potassium (K) content. Coolants tend to leave behind "salts" that are made primarily of these two elements so we can see when these elements are elevated above normal limits.

Max allowable temperature for Allison units is 330F Converter Output temperature. The transmission parts can't take over 350F or you start to damage seals, wires, plastics, etc. The Flash Point of TranSynd is 235C (455F). I've not run it much over 350F so I'd think that that's the limit for continuous operation before you start getting some serious oxidation. We never ran a test that destroyed it.

I wanted to let you know that I'm now doing a radio "Call In" show on oils and oil analysis. I'm on at 10am EST every second Saturday of every month at WTRU Radio hosted by "The Christian Car Guy". If anyone wants to listen in or call with a question.

Here's a link to for anyone who wants to listen in: http://www.jglubricantservices.com/c...n_car_guy.html

Of course, I'm always still directly available to all WOG forum members for specific Allison oil related questions.
__________________
Thomas Johnson
Former Allison Transmission Fluids Engineer
Avon, IN
"Offering Professional Lubrication Engineering Advice"

[luvrbus]

Old Tom had Allison back peddling for several years when he tried his best to spec out the C-4 rated oils for the older Allison's that lasted about 4 months before Allison sent service bulletins out saying disregard the following   now he is on the radio I often wondered if he took a early retirement at the request of Allison 

[Iceni John]

None of the attached links work right for me.   One is even in Norwegian, I think.   Are updated links available?   I would really like to learn more (but preferably in English!).

John

[eagle19952]

well darn...they used to work...i have had this on mt hard drive awhile.... i'll do some research.

the ones i get are still in English or a 404 notice, which is usually no longer available...

http://www.allisontransmission.com/parts-service/approved-fluids/on-highway-fluids

None of the attached links work right for me.   One is even in Norwegian, I think.   Are updated links available?   I would really like to learn more (but preferably in English!).

John

[Utahclaimjumper]

 I am one who uses AMSOIL TORQUE DRIVE in my late model Allison 3060 trans. All AMSOIL publishing warrants their product to MEET OR EXCEED tes295 specs, I've been using it for two years and 9K miles with excellent results, primarily in heat control. I have no beef with Transynd other than price..>>>Dan (Its interesting that Tom singles out Amsoil,   must be a strong competitor)

[luvrbus]

Tom is behind the times all the oil manufactures have a product that meets or exceeds his spec he calls it nowadays   

[Tikvah]

I have 10w-30 in my trans....so far it seems great.  Took a little impact out of the shifts and it's seems to be staying golden color.


TIKVAH
(Dave Rush)
MCI 102A3   6V92
Full Time On The Road - I couldn't fix my brakes, so I made my horn louder