Revolutionizing the store lot relationship?

[Audiomaker]

Ok, so the point of this thread is to possibly start a trend that creates a better relationship between RV'ers and the managers and security of stores with large parking lots that we might like to "stealth camp" in.

First let's look at perspectives...

The RV'ers perspective:

1.  It's asphalt, it's empty, you're not causing any harm, and you will probably spend some money at the store, and if you're tired, you are staying off the road and out of neighborhoods while in that condition.


The store manager and securities perspective:

1. It's asphalt, it's empty, you're not causing any harm, and you will probably spend some money at the store, and if you're tired, you are staying off the road and out of neighborhoods while in that condition.

*PLUS*

2. It is against a city ordinance that you may or may not care about, but legally are supposed to uphold.

3. The RV's may be an eyesore.

4. The RV'er may be a criminal...even if they are a good person... because they don't have money to afford a house, so they might need to steal from the store.

5. The image of "gypsies" making your parking lot a "camp" doesn't make your other customers feel safe.

6.  Several times a day you are interrupted to be asked permission to park in the outskirts of the lot while you are busy managing the store.

*******

Ok, now let's look at this from a real experience point of view...

After the first month of becoming manager, or head of security,  The person in charge has learned that RV's come and go... pretty much daily.
Overwhelmingly they don't cause any problems... they park where there's plenty of space and stay as far out of sight as possible.  There is no additional theft vs your regular customers and they do buy things.
For the most part, customer complaints about the RV's are very rare.
You've decided that when RV's come to ask you about staying, that your general answer is "Ok" unless they are really disheveled.
Over time, this asking just becomes an annoyance...  you appreciate it, but it's every day...over and over, and you repeat your standard answer or have your security staff handle it (instead of watching the store at that moment).

If "No Parking" is mandated by your situation, it is just as tedious telling RV'er after RV'er "No, sorry", and it is also a time consuming and slightly ominous thing to have your security knocking on RV doors to do the uncomfortable job of evicting them.

Simply put, the RV'er have put a burden on the managers and security either way.
If it's OK, or not OK, we are taking their time either by continuously asking them, or by not asking them in the cases where it is not OK.

*********

So here is my proposed solution...

These store managers and security aren't totally stupid.  They know we're out there, they see us constantly, and deal with us (one way or the other) constantly.

My solution is a simple one, and I think if a trend started to do it, it would very shortly become commonplace with the managers and security.

The solution I propose is that if one intends to park in the lots of large stores, that they have a sign made... a standard size (4" X 12"?) that has their cell phone number on it, and that is placed under the wiper blade of the RV or on the dash.
It might say in a small font underneath "For any problem call".
It should be a discrete color so it doesn't visually liter the lot, but would only be recognized by those in the "know".

I believe this is a respectful solution.

It does not consume the time of security and managers who would allow you to stay.

It shows that you have respect for their jobs and property.

It allows a safer and more comfortable way to be informed you have to leave if that is the case (vs the security guard being presented with fat old men in their underwear).

It is more comfortable for the RV'er (who would rather get a phone call than be in his underwear presented with store security).

It doesn't ask them to violate city ordinance by giving you official permission.

It doesn't insult their intelligence by acting like your are "hiding" in plain view.

etc...etc.

I believe if most RV'ers did this, that the store managers and security would catch on very quickly, and that they would appreciate the spirit of cooperation.
It could become the "norm" if everyone did it.

...and it would be a very cheap RV accessory for what it buys everyone (and Walmart could sell the sign kits...lol).

I welcome your thoughts.

Sean

[lostagain]

I don't see how asking permission is a burden on a store manager. The biggest part of a manager's job is to deal with people: customers, staff, suppliers, etc. A manager is someone that likes people and talking with them. If not, he should not be a manager. Asking permission is a show of respect.

I would not post my cell number for everyone to see.

JC

[Jon]

Agree with most points, but this topic goes far beyond a store manager. First, those of us that respect the opportunity to park on someone's property have an obligation to see others experiencing the same opportunity don't screw it up for all of us. Communities near where I live now forbid overnight parking except in RV parks because the morons dumped their holding tanks into the storm sewers, opened the awnings, brought out the lawn chairs, and generally made themselves at home for however long they decided to stay.

So from my perspective we need to protect our future opportunities to overnight somewhere by policing the morons.

I think we do need to personally ask permission, then we need to thank the manager when permission is granted and if possible spend some money in the store. I think the manager deserves to meet and greet his "guests".

We always leave the manager with our card that has a photo of our bus and all of our contact information. I am never going to put a cell number in public view because there are too many crazies out there. If we are told he cannot give permission to stay, we leave. We still thank him for talking to us. We cannot pull into a parking lot and hang out a card and assume parking is allowed. It might violate company policy, local laws, or might just be unsafe and it would take the store manager's knowledge to alert us to that.

And we have no control over others who will sue ending our chances of parking overnight somewhere. We wanted to remain in a parking lot over night one time and the manager refused permission. She was very sorry, but another RV had been parked overnight with permission, had been broken into by bad guys, and they hurt the RV occupants. The RV owners sued the store that allowed parking so from that point on nobody was allowed to park.

We are our own worst enemies sometimes.

BTW, we were suppliers to RV parks at one time, and we learned the owners of campgrounds and parks wanted nothing to do with folks who want to park in Walmart and other parking lots. Their attitude is those folks are so cheap they complain about the costs, usually just want to dump, fill and do laundry while the kids over run the pool and the dog poops on the sites.

[Audiomaker]

I don't see how asking permission is a burden on a store manager. The biggest part of a manager's job is to deal with people: customers, staff, suppliers, etc. A manager is someone that likes people and talking with them. If not, he should not be a manager. Asking permission is a show of respect.

I would not post my cell number for everyone to see.

JC

I dunno.  I think it's our presumption that a manager wants to meet us.  Certainly upon meeting them it is their job to act pleasant, but I suspect they have other things on their plate.
I have owned and managed a bar (and had assistant managers).  We entertained about 300 people per night.  It was pretty often that a patron would want to "talk to the owner" about something... telling me stories about themselves and such, and of course I always acted interested, but usually I had been taken away from something more pressing.
I think what a manager really wants is to get through the day with as little trouble as possible and with the customers satisfied.

[Audiomaker]

Agree with most points, but this topic goes far beyond a store manager. First, those of us that respect the opportunity to park on someone's property have an obligation to see others experiencing the same opportunity don't screw it up for all of us. Communities near where I live now forbid overnight parking except in RV parks because the morons dumped their holding tanks into the storm sewers, opened the awnings, brought out the lawn chairs, and generally made themselves at home for however long they decided to stay.

So from my perspective we need to protect our future opportunities to overnight somewhere by policing the morons.

I think we do need to personally ask permission, then we need to thank the manager when permission is granted and if possible spend some money in the store. I think the manager deserves to meet and greet his "guests".

We always leave the manager with our card that has a photo of our bus and all of our contact information. I am never going to put a cell number in public view because there are too many crazies out there. If we are told he cannot give permission to stay, we leave. We still thank him for talking to us. We cannot pull into a parking lot and hang out a card and assume parking is allowed. It might violate company policy, local laws, or might just be unsafe and it would take the store manager's knowledge to alert us to that.

And we have no control over others who will sue ending our chances of parking overnight somewhere. We wanted to remain in a parking lot over night one time and the manager refused permission. She was very sorry, but another RV had been parked overnight with permission, had been broken into by bad guys, and they hurt the RV occupants. The RV owners sued the store that allowed parking so from that point on nobody was allowed to park.

We are our own worst enemies sometimes.

BTW, we were suppliers to RV parks at one time, and we learned the owners of campgrounds and parks wanted nothing to do with folks who want to park in Walmart and other parking lots. Their attitude is those folks are so cheap they complain about the costs, usually just want to dump, fill and do laundry while the kids over run the pool and the dog poops on the sites.

Well the legal aspect is huge.  Consider that by asking a manager if you can park overnight, you may be asking them to commit to allowing you to break the law by violating city ordinance.
A manager may or may not care if you stay out there, but each one that you ask, you are also asking them to take responsibility for it.
As I posted in another thread, as a bar owner I was sometimes asked by intoxicated people if they could sleep it off for a bit in their cars.
The reality is that while this may have seemed respectful to the drunk, for me I was presented with a dilemma.
Do I refuse and let them *drive* off, or even *walk* off?  Believe it or not, there are plenty of "drunk walking" accidents.
Or.... do I let them sleep in the lot and risk that they get hurt on my property *with my permission*?

Honest answer, I wish they hadn't asked and had just driven off in the morning.

[Audiomaker]

....and thirdly on the Devil's advocate side....

Are people who are out on the road camped in parking lots really worried about "crazies" getting their cell phone number?

I mean, you're right there.  The "crazy" has to be standing in front of your rig to get your number (and own a phone to call it).

If someone is that crazy, I think I'd almost appreciate the call vs all the possible alternatives to that situation.

[dukegrad98]

Well the legal aspect is huge.  Consider that by asking a manager if you can park overnight, you may be asking them to commit to allowing you to break the law by violating city ordinance.
A manager may or may not care if you stay out there, but each one that you ask, you are also asking them to take responsibility for it.
As I posted in another thread, as a bar owner I was sometimes asked by intoxicated people if they could sleep it off for a bit in their cars.
The reality is that while this may have seemed respectful to the drunk, for me I was presented with a dilemma.
Do I refuse and let them *drive* off, or even *walk* off?  Believe it or not, there are plenty of "drunk walking" accidents.
Or.... do I let them sleep in the lot and risk that they get hurt on my property *with my permission*?

Honest answer, I wish they hadn't asked and had just driven off in the morning.

You'd think that in all these years of various forum participation, I'd learn not to weigh in on legal issues.  Still, you need to do your homework here, because the answers vary a little bit by state.  Research what duties are owed to an invitee (as opposed to a trespasser).  (Hint:  at a commercial place of business like Wal-Mart, you are probably an implied invitee whether you ask permission to be there or not.)  If you have owned a bar, you should already know a lot of this stuff, but then again knowingly serving an already-intoxicated individual that might later want to sleep it off in your parking lot is a pretty bad idea in some states...

Also research whether I become responsible for your crime by giving you permission to do it.  (I'll make this one easy for you:  if I tell you it's okay to assault/murder/rape someone on my property, am I responsible when you do it?)

Cheers, John  <-- lawyer by day

[Audiomaker]

You'd think that in all these years of various forum participation, I'd learn not to weigh in on legal issues.  Still, you need to do your homework here, because the answers vary a little bit by state.  Research what duties are owed to an invitee (as opposed to a trespasser).  (Hint:  at a commercial place of business like Wal-Mart, you are probably an implied invitee whether you ask permission to be there or not.)  If you have owned a bar, you should already know a lot of this stuff, but then again knowingly serving an already-intoxicated individual that might later want to sleep it off in your parking lot is a pretty bad idea in some states...

Also research whether I become responsible for your crime by giving you permission to do it.  (I'll make this one easy for you:  if I tell you it's okay to assault/murder/rape someone on my property, am I responsible when you do it?)

Cheers, John  <-- lawyer by day

In post above it was described to me that a manager regretfully declined permission to park because some RV'ers had been previously broken into and hurt.
As to whether a manager becomes responsible legally for giving permission for you to break city ordinance by parking there, you might be right.  However, they are still responsible to their superiors.
Also, being an "implied invitee" only pertains to certain activities. Parking overnight may or may not be one of them.
Just as in my bar.  They were invited, but burning themselves on the bonfire they started in the bathroom wasn't on the list.

And you are correct... over serving is prohibited by law (strictly) in my state.  The reality is that you can only keep someone from becoming a VIP (Visibly Intoxicated Person) about 50% of the time if they are intent on bringing themselves to that condition.  They will find a way... but that's another topic.

[dukegrad98]

...you might be right.

You'd think that in all these years of various forum participation, I'd learn not to weigh in on legal issues.

Lesson reinforced, thanks.

Cheers, John

[Tony LEE]

There is no problem to solve.

We are full-time travellers (as distinct from climate refugees) and if we happen to be in town when camping hour comes, we have no problem looking for a place to stay in-town.

Almost always ask and rarely get refused and never get the impression that I am a nuisance.  Some managers have obviously told their service desk staff to refer all requests to them, but mostly the service staff give permission, along with any cations or caveats.  Even if there is a NOP ordinance in force, we will often ask anyway and invariably get permission subject to the rider that the cops might tell us to get out. Only once has that happened in the US in several years. No big deal.

BTW, we prefer to use stores other than Walmart (even though we buy most of our food there) because others like Safeway, Fred Myer and especially Home depot mostly have fast, strong WiFi out in the parking lot, and because they mostly close overnight, tend to be a bit quieter.

No problem exists, so no action needed.

Must agree that some RVers are totally rude the way they take up 12 parking spaces when they could easily make do with half that number. Others dump their fiver or toad off and leave them all day(s). They also (being fraidycats) want to raft up together for protection and that makes the place look really untidy. My solution to that is to wait until they have all settled down around me and then drive over to the far side of the lot where I have a bit of breathing space.

[luvrbus]

For 5 bucks you can buy a Wal/Mart road atlas it will list every WM where you are and are not allowed to park overnight 75% of the stores owned by developers will allow parking, if not a ordinance in the town all company owned stores allow it's the W/M way 
They are having problems with the RV's getting bigger and heavier tearing up the light duty paving some mangers do ask the buses stay on the heavy duty paving the W/M trucks use

[Homegrowndiesel]

I like to think the store bag, with receipt visable in the window solves most of the problems.
  But I do have a problem with this thinking, "4. The RV'er may be a criminal...even if they are a good person... because they don't have money to afford a house, so they might need to steal from the store."

[Audiomaker]

I like to think the store bag, with receipt visable in the window solves most of the problems.
  But I do have a problem with this thinking, "4. The RV'er may be a criminal...even if they are a good person... because they don't have money to afford a house, so they might need to steal from the store."

Yeah...sorry about that.  I'm trying to be realistic.

But honestly, if you're a security guard you might think this.  Maybe not on a $50k rig, but leaving the site at night with a beaten down 70's motorhome still in the lot might give you second thoughts.

My apologies if anyone took that personally.

[Dave5Cs]

Yep we would never leave our cell phone numbers out where other could have it. Some people would call it to see if they could tour the coach or who knows what. i like Jon's idea with the card and picture of bus. i know most campgrounds if we say a coach or bus conversion have asked for a picture to be sent before we arrive and then they see it and say oh that's fine come ahead.
lowes and home depots around us seem to have a lot of overnighters mostly big rigs and large RV's. nobody cares but they are also not opening their awnings etc. either.
We look for Commercial warehouse type areas for overnights where you see a lot of trucks parked on the street in front.

[Lostranger]

Ancient wisdom holds that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. Sean makes a point that store managers probably don't want to be bothered and that asking could put them in the position of having to choose between going against some rule/ordinance or alienating a customer standing in front of them.

When we're traveling, we ALWAYS stay in non-fee spots. Big box stores and truck stops top the list, but we've never failed to find a place to shut down for the night. We park in a remote corner, we buy something from the store if that's an option, we remain as unobtrusive as a 40' yellow bus can be and we leave early. We've never asked permission, and we've never been asked to move. If confronted by security or police I would be humble and apologetic and do whatever they ask.

We have friends whose free camping policy is to go first to a police station and ask where overnight parking is permitted. I can see the advantages, and they claim it's never failed, but it seems time consuming. Besides, by the time I'm tired enough to want to stop, I'm not the most gregarious of hillbillies.

I respect those who think it's best to ask, and they MAY be right. I do not encourage anyone to do as we do even though our approach works for us. Part of our strategy involves avoiding prime tourist areas such as Branson, MO, Gatlinburg, TN, Myrtle Beach, SC and Orlando. Come to think of it, we avoid most of Florida as a matter of principle, but that might be fodder for a different thread.

Jim in the bumpy end of NC

P.S. Just to be clear, the "avoiding Florida" comment was a joke. If you're from Florida, you might not get that.

P.P.S. Actually, native Floridians probably did get the joke, but those who moved to Florida from somewhere else and then joined the shock-wave invasion of Western North Carolina sporting oranges on their license plates certainly did not.

P.P.P.S. Sean, as much as I like you, I'm not displaying my phone number to the world. That goes against the unspoken hillbilly privacy code.