Biodiesel and the DD 8V71

[Danny]

What the thoughts of the group on Biodiesel and the DD 8V71 engine?

Thanks,
Danny

[TomC]

Shouldn't be a problem since the clearances on the injectors are not as tight as the electronic engines are.  I have recieved Diesel Secret convesion fluid to make veggie oil Diesel.  To 17 gals of veggie oil you add 2 gallons Kerosene, 1 gallon unleaded gasoline, 15 ounces of Power Service Diesel additive, and 3.5 ounces of Diesel Secret Energy to make 20 gallons total.  If you collect your own oil, can cost as little as .46/gallon to make.  I'm going to buy 55 gal drums of virgin oil and just use that since I don't have the time to scrounge around behind restaurants for old cooking oil.  Not only am I going to run it in my Mercedes Turbodiesel, I intend to run it in my bus, at least to top off the tank before a trip.  This mixture is essentially a B85 mix. But with no lye, ethynol, additional heaters or extra tanks.  One gallon of the mix is about $40.  But one gallon will make about 730gal of veggie oil based fuel. Will let you know how it works in the next few weeks.  Go to www.dieselsecret.com  Good Luck, TomC

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Tom, the "secret" must be some way to demulsify the fat content of the oil to get it to separate out. It's the heavy fats that cause the fuel to gel at lower temps. I suspect that the "secret" is a readily-available demulsifier. Any chemists out there?

I'd be very concerned about adding any gasoline to the mix, because you'll lower the cetane ratio of the mixture. It's the cetane (inverse of octane) value that quantifies the ability of the fuel to ignite with compression. Gasoline has anti-knock (preignition) additives that will work against a diesel's need to ignite fuels with compression alone. If you must add gasoline, make sure it it the lowest pump grade (octane) available.

Also, be sure and bring along a bunch of extra fuel filters, because Biodiesel will make your entire fuel system squeaky-clean.

And thanks for being a "pioneer" in this field! I'm very curious to hear your results.

Brian

[gumpy]

To 17 gals of veggie oil you add 2 gallons Kerosene, 1 gallon unleaded gasoline, 15 ounces of Power Service Diesel additive, and 3.5 ounces of Diesel Secret Energy to make 20 gallons total. 

You forgot Snake Oil....  Oh, sorry, you did get it. They just put an official sounding name one it... Diesel Secret Energy!! 

Glad this is your engine and not mine.  Let us know how that works for you, though.

[Chariotdriver]

 

    I've been hanging out on some Waste Veggie Oil and BioDiesel forums for the last few months or so.

The members there are very informed as how to make Diesel engines run properly on WVO.
There are some companies that are actually converting over soe diesel buses to run on WVO.
Check out these link to read for yourself about the DSE or do a search on the forums for DSE for more info.
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/4511077101?r=9731063111#9731063111
The concensus I got was not to use it.
But please read some of the info.

[kyle4501]

I wonder about biodiesel. It has been out long enough that there should be some real answers rather than all the hype & mystery. I've read what I could & talked to a chemist & I still can't get an understanding of the real costs.

If it is so great as advertised;

why aren't the petrol companies using it to lower their cost & selling more for less to increase their proffit even further.

why aren't local trucking terminals using it to fuel up their trucks at the terminals? at ~$2/ gal savings, I wouldn't think it would take very long to start showing up on the bottom line in a big way.


I'm not against it, it just doesn't seem to make sense. There ain't no free lunch. Where are the 'hidden' costs?

A friend is making a version of it to run in his Ford diesel pick-up. But the risk there is less than on a bus... there are more zeros involved if you loose a engine or need a tow on a bus.

As for me, well I'm chicken on this stuff (since the savings pale in comparrison to the potential costs) & I'd rather not wager my 8V71.

Good luck on doing it your way.

[belfert]

I wonder about biodiesel. It has been out long enough that there should be some real answers rather than all the hype & mystery. I've read what I could & talked to a chemist & I still can't get an understanding of the real costs.

If it is so great as advertised;

why aren't the petrol companies using it to lower their cost & selling more for less to increase their proffit even further.

why aren't local trucking terminals using it to fuel up their trucks at the terminals? at ~$2/ gal savings, I wouldn't think it would take very long to start showing up on the bottom line in a big way.

There simply is not enough vegetable oil, waste or not, to fuel more than a small part of America's diesel fleet, regardless if this stuff is snake oil or not.  Biodiesel is reported to be driving up the costs of vegetable oil for food use.

Brian Elfert

[kyle4501]

There simply is not enough vegetable oil, waste or not, to fuel more than a small part of America's diesel fleet, regardless if this stuff is snake oil or not. Biodiesel is reported to be driving up the costs of vegetable oil for food use.

Brian Elfert

Yep, no free lunch, the waste oil isn't being wasted, is is already being used for other stuff. So it is just robbing Peter to pay Paul & make a few people happy.

It would be nice if veggie oil production could increase without causing problems elsewhere.........

[wahlrite]

I have a 2006 chevy duramax diesel, I run biodiesel that I make for myself, I have had absoultly no problems except no black smoke!, I use the methoxide methoed ( methonal + sodium hydroxide ) and settle out the glyceryn, as this is what will destroy and injector pump ( glyceryn ). I purchased the " Seceret " online, I dont think I would try the " SECERET " in any of my diesel motors, unless I could get rid of the glyceryn somehow

Rick

[Al Bass]

I've been using the DSE method of running WVO in my 86 Ford 6.9 diesel to see how it works before I use it in my bus and have driven about 2200 miles without any signs of a problem (I'm keeping my fingers crossed)the truck still fires right up in the mornings and highway mileage is 19.6 lowest to 21.75 highest at 65 mph. I still cant believe it is cheaper now to drive the truck than it is to drive my Del Sol. Time will tell

[Stan]

We have a politician in Alberta currently campaigning with a proposal for the government to spend tons of money in research and grants to build a biodiesel plant.

The object of this proposal is to increase the price of canola to the farmer, so there goes your free lunch. Everything cooked with vegetable oil will cost more, your diesel fuel will be subsidized with tax dollars and some farmers will be able to sell a product that there is currently no market for. The environment activists will probably support him on this policy alone.

[Homegrowndiesel]

Good question Danny

No problem with bio-diesel in an 871.  Old rubber fuel lines with neat(100%) biodiesel is another story.

Later today I will take some time to respond more indepth to this discussion.

[TomC]

Al- Since being lambasted for touting the virtures of the DSE method for B85 BioDiesel, I have been looking at the sights that are knocking (parden the pun) its' usefullness.  So far, I've read alot of negative views on DSE saying "it won't work; wouldn't put that in my engine; will cause serious problems, etc".  I have also read posts, like yours, that are saying that the DSE method is working well.  What I haven't read yet, is proof positive that this can ruin your engine.  I have read about the fool that tried 25% gasoline and 75% Diesel-duh! And have read about some of the engines that are cautioned about, like early GM 6.2, 6.5, and others with inheritanly weak injection pumps that have failed with the thicker WVO.  I haven't seen any indication that the DSE can be harmful to a MB 300 engine like my car (actually the best engine to use since the injecter tip is relatively large and it has a very strong injection pump), or to a Detroit 2 stroke mechanical engine (all you have to do is to see what the military are using to get an idea which engines can work with questionable fuel).

I hope all the experimenting with WVO and SVO will keep all of us up on both the positive and the negatives that are found.  I am interested in the results.  Good Luck TomC

[Happycampersrus]

Tom C,

Don't pay any attention to the nay sayer's. I have, like many others have had great results making my own BioDiesel. I currently have used it in my 6v92 and my 7.3l and my VW for about 3 yrs now without any problems. The DSE method works great.

I have also used waste engine oil mixed at 20% diesel or kerosene and 80% used oil with no problems. Actually the engines sound better and seem to feel stronger. Look at it this way, with all the nay sayer's that just leaves more alternative fuels for us.

Dale

[Homegrowndiesel]

 Glad to see so much interest in alternative fuels. I have been experimenting with various alternative fuel blends for some years now and am always happy to share my experiences. 

As a drop (pour) in replacement for petroleum fossil fuel in today's diesel engine Biodiesel is good down to about 38 degrees. As of today I know of no pour point enhancer that is available for Biodiesel, as opposed to plenty that are available for diesel fuel.  The pour point, filter-plugging temperature is close to that of diesel, and if you live in a temperate climate the two are interchangeable.

Due to the solvent qualities of the esters of vegetable oil (Biodiesel) natural rubber and some other rubber compounds are not compatible. (They get soft and gummy) No problem with newer?  vehicles due to the new rubber compounds used on the fuel lines. I have about 3 years on the old rubber lines in a couple of places just to see how they hold up, and I should replace them soon.

After making and using Biodiesel for awhile I learned about Rudolf Diesel, his invention, (the compression ignition engine) and what he designed his engine to run on, Vegetable oil. I found out what engines (because of their design) ran good on vegetable oil (indirect injection and old school injection pumps) and which ones can cause problems if you do not thin the vegetable oil enough (worn rotary pumps, and direct injection).

I have run engines on Waste motor oil, waste vegetable oil, alcohol, and blends that have also included mineral spirits, kerosene, gasoline, as well as fuel conditioner, and what some would call snake oil.  I've taken the engines apart to see the results, and am going to try the different blends for emissions @ our local DMV.

What I have done is but a drop in the ocean. The information age we live in has been so helpful. The Internet, and boards like this one have taught me so much.

The way I see it now (FWIW) is you can run Biodiesel neat, (100%) down to 40 degrees (fudge factor). You can run blends 5-20% with diesel, or kerosene in cold temps with the proper additives to below zero. To ensure all temperature and fuel combinations, you need a heated fuel supply. As previously noted you can add a lot of products to thin the vegetable oil out. Some products ensure the homogenous blend that resists separation of the blend.

I got a really good laugh when I read congress brought in the oil executives and asked them what we, as Americans could do to help promote alternative fuels in the market place.  That would be like asking Shell oil company how you could boost the sale of Exxon products, it is not in their best interest. Of course if they can still control it and make the profit as they are now!  I feel Biodiesel fits their existing refinery, distribution system well.

I have heard a lot of naysayers with a lot of reasons, but every $1 less spent oversees counts. I do not want to sound like an environmental wacko or the sky is falling Chicken Little but folks those fossil fuels are not limitless and renewable fuels are Co2 neutral. I do not want to be held hostage to the status quo, and would rather support a farmer versus a foreigner.

The blend I am trying now is mostly alcohol, and vegetable oil.  Alcohol and 5% gasoline has worked surprisingly well. Used French fry oil properly filtered and ran with a heated fuel supply has run flawless.

"The diesel engine can be fed with vegetable oils and would help considerably in the development of agriculture of the countries which use it"
"The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in course of time as important as petroleum and the coal tar products of the present time."
Rudolf Diesel 1911


More than what you asked for Danny, and I will quit rambling.

Bill Glenn