church bus, sort of

[David Anderson]

I pretty much have talked our church out of a 47 passenger bus.  We are now looking at a Carpenter bus.  http://www.carpenterbus.com/index.html

I have a friend who is a member of another church which bought one last year.  It was around $62k brand new, 26 passenger.  They really like it.  He said insurance was comparable to the ford 15 passenger van.  10,000GVW, Class B license with passenger endorsement required, but no DOT inspections.  I kind of thought that to be odd, since this is a passenger conveyance.  However, I'm just repeating what he told me.  He really likes the way it drives compared to the top heavy Ford van.  Very sturdy and stable.

Anyone have any experience with these small buses, either in a church or corporate setting?  We are trying to make a qualified buying decision for our congregation.

David

[busing704]

I have driven one of these for about 25000 miles for Christain Tours of NC first trip it drove was like a pig on roller skates. Then after that I found that you must drive with a very light hand. runs well, good service,

[TomC]

Don't make the mistake thinking these buses are built anywhere near as well as a MCI, Prevost, GMC, etc.  If you don't have anymore expectations then a bus built more like a sticks and staples motorhome, then you'll be alright.  Most are built on lightweight truck chassis, and even though they may have air suspension in the rear, they don't ride or handle anywhere near what a full sized bus does.  If someone said to me to take a road trip in one of these-I would refuse on the basis of ride and safety.  For a short ride as shuttle bus-OK.  Good Luck, TomC

[Nusa]

If you're looking at the 26 passenger model, you might consider two 15-passenger van's instead, simply because they'll be useful vehicles for the church even when not moving people. Yeah, you need twice the drivers for a real road trip, but there will be a lot more people qualified to drive them.

If your serious road trips are infrequent, you might be better off chartering a bus as required, rather than buying.

[belfert]

Many insurers are shying away from insuring regular 15 passenger vans for church groups and the like.  Too many incidents from volunteers not used to driving those type of vehicles.  A larger vehicle requires a CDL so the driver should be used to a larger vehicle.

[Runcutter]

I believe NHTSA did a report on the rollover propensity of the 15-passenger vans.  I think I have a copy, but don't know just where it is -- worth reading and passing around for any group running the full size vans.  In Texas, church groups using them have had a number of accidents/fatalities, with rollovers - particularly involving blown tires.  Both kids, and senior citizens, have lost their lives.  

Back in 1995, there was a bad fatality in East Texas, involving cutaways.  In that case, it was not the vehicle, but the driver pulled out in front of a concrete truck.  Three cutaways runnning in convoy, off their planned route.  She was the second vehicle.  As a young charter driver, I learned that you put the most experienced driver in front, the next most experienced in back, and both watched out for everyone in the middle.  I always suspected, but did not know, that she might have been suckered out of that intersection, for fear she'd lose sight of the leader.  

That led me to develop a church bus driver safety program -- not driving skills (like CDL) per se, but the things I learned as a young bus driver.  How to run in convoy.  What to do at railroad tracks (no, not what everyone else seems to do).  I remember meeting with the youth minister of the church I attended then.  He was planning a ski trip to Colorado, driving straight through.  He'd have the second driver sleep in the minibus from Dallas to El Paso, then start driving.  Right, sleep and get good rest in a bus full of teenagers.  I strongly recommended that he fly the relief driver to El Paso, put him up in a hotel, and save the cost of the funerals.  

My presentation to church pastors was "if you want to grow the church, how about you stop killing off the current members?"  What I learned was that the pastors were concerned that the volunteer drivers, if they knew what was at stake, would stop volunteering.  So, beyond getting a larger vehicle that would require CDL skills, you might also think about getting a local charter operator to do a safety presentation to the volunteer drivers - stuff that's not covered in the CDL.  That could also foster a good relationship with the charter operator, for the longer trips where it might not be advisable to use the church's own bus.

I agree that using a charter operator for longer trips makes sense.  No conflicts, the bus driver is the driver, not the minister who happens to be behind the wheel.  However, it is also necessary to get the right operator.  Another local church chartered two buses.  Charter operator subcontracted one, and that driver failed his drug test -- posthumously if I remember right.  I was listening to the radio news that day, and they were interviewing one fo the church ministers about the dead teenagers -- and I knew the voice - the husband of a family member of my wife's boss.

Off my soapbox for now, just trying to save a few lives.

Arthur

[David Anderson]

There is a risk with any vehicle and a load of passengers.  A motor coach is out of our price range and from all I've read in the past about "church owned buses" on this forum, a comprehensive maintenance plan would be difficult to implement based on cost and the volunteer aspect of a church setting.

We have two 15 passenger vans which are near retirement.  Many have seen the "blowout wrecks" on tv that happen when these vans get into dicey traffic situations, and some in our church are hesitant to replace with the same vehicle. 

The 26 passenger vehicle would be a mid range choice.  We could remove a row of seats and make it a 22 passenger vehicle to enhance safety and lower the weight.  It would be a policy choice by our transportation committee.  I think it is actually an upgrade considering a CDL B with a P endorsement would be required.  This would raise the quality of drivers in my opinion.

These are all ideas.  I'm just picking your brains for opinions.  Thanks for the help.

David

[Len Silva]

I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of blow out accidents, whether in 15 passenger vans or the infamous Explorer/Firestone situation, are driver error.

Panic braking and over correction are the cause of most of these wrecks.  Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to test for how a driver might react in that situation.

[TomC]

Mercedes-Benz makes the Sprinter Van (also marketed as a Freightliner Sprinter), which in passenger form has a maximum of 12 people-even though there is enough room for the extra bench seat to make a 15 seater.  MB believes it is not safe to have 15 in a van along with all their suitcases and such.  The nice thing about a Sprinter is they get 20-25 mpg. So you could have 3 of them and still have about the same fuel consumption as a full sized bus-with the flexibility of having 3 vans that anyone can drive, instead of a bus that needs a bus driver's license.  Good Luck, TomC

[Runcutter]

One option, if your budget can support it, is a low-floor (for the Senior Citizens), 25 passenger cutaway on truck chassis.  Think about what you'd use the vehicle for, and who would use it most.  Think, too, about a new vehicle (warrantee, no maintenance issues, long life) versus a used anything.  Probably the last bus you'd want is a retired transit, although you can pick them up cheep.      

If you have multiple small groups, then the Sprinter may be a good option.  From what I've seen, it appears to be a good vehicle.  For larger groups, you could use multiple vehicles.  If you have a lot of senior citizens, then a low-floor may make more sense.  If you'd need a parking lot shuttle, the low floor again wins, for speed of loading/unloading.      

Sprinter advantage, no CDL required.  Disadvantage (from my perspective) - no CDL required.  You can abate that with training, require the NSC Defensive Driver course (weak, but better than nothing), or, even better, presentations from your local transit system/charter operator safety folks.  By the way, David, if you want the outline of my Church Bus Safety Presentation, send me an email (runcutter AT runcutter.com) and I'll send you a copy.      

Three ministers and one church van driver were waiting for their interview with St. Peter.  St. Peter asked their professions, all told him.  He looked at the van driver, and said "go on in."  To the ministers, "go over there, and wait for your interviews - we'll see what happens."  Of course, one of the ministers protested - "We're men of the cloth, but have to be interviewed? - And you let the van driver go right in?  -- Why?"   Answer --- "He's scared the hell out of more people than the three of you put together."  The church I used to go to had one of those volunteer drivers.  I wasn't on the trip, but heard the stories from the Adult Sunday School class that he drove to downtown Dallas - sounds like the passengers were making out their wills on the way.    


Here's an excerpt from a transit system design job I did last year.  These are on a low-floor, but otherwise standard International chassis - basically a heavy duty truck.  Thus, any truck mechanic can work on them, and they're designed for easy maintenance.  Although my client did implement the system witht these vehicles, I haven't been over there to ride - so I don't know about the ride quality.  

If I remember right, the price below was with other equipment that a church wouldn't want (radios, fareboxes, electronic destination signs, perhaps even talking bus.)  That says that your price might be substantially lower.  The seven to ten year planned service life is in transit service, so a church should get a lot more.  

 

VEHICLES AND FEATURES:

   The vehicles now being considered for this operation are approximately 25 (seated) passenger, low-floor, body-on-truck-chassis buses.  One example is the Ameritrans Heritage Low-Floor (http://www.tmcgroupinc.com/vehicles/Heritage-Low-Floor/floor-plans.html).  The photos reproduced in this report are courtesy of Ameritrans, and depict their American Heritage Low Floor vehicle.

A similar body, (same chassis), is manufactured by Champion.  Their model is the "EZ Trans" ()
 
This medium-duty vehicle has a seven to ten year planned service life.  The low floor speeds loading, and features a fold-out ramp for wheelchair/disabled access.  Projected cost per vehicle is between $160,000 and $190,000 – depending on options selected.  Delivery is 90-120 days after an order is placed.


Arthur

[Len Silva]

Love the look of that TMC Heritage.  Those are going to make some neat low dollar conversions when they hit the used market in a few years.

[Jeremy]

Mention was made of the Mercedes Sprinter...many minibuses and minicoaches here are based on Mercedes chassis, but usually the Mercedes Vario rather than the Sprinter, which although large is really just a typical light-duty panel van. I don't know if the Vario is available in the States - if it is it might be worth researching builders using this base.

Examples of Vario-based buses:





(This one's from Plaxton, who built my bus)






Jeremy

[David Anderson]

Those TMC vehicles are nice, but they are 3 times the price of the Carpenter bus.  Why such a difference?

David

[Runcutter]

I looked at the Carpenter website link, midsize buses, and what I found are the cutaways on van chassis.  The TMC's are on a heavy duty truck chassis (International Harvester).  I ride van cutaways a lot as airport shuttles, and find nothing comfortable about them.  The last one I drove was at a former church, a long time ago, and I don't remember how it handled.  My concern, though, is the high center of gravity with a relatively narrow track.  I have ridden the cutaways on truck chassis, but haven't paid attention to the ride quality - and I haven't ridden the IC/TMC low floors that my client bought.  My job was to design the system, and I think I somehow got crossways with the Mayor, so they haven't been in touch with me since I completed my original work.

One thing that adds to the cost of vehicles like the TMC is that they have to go through Altoona testing to be sold to public transit properties.  That's an added manufacturer's expense.  The truck cutaways have a longer service life (and I think a much longer warrantee), while the van cutaways are considered disposable vehicles.

A compromise might be the mid-range large cutaways, on GMC General or Freightliner chassis.  You've probably seen schoolbuses running around, of various sizes.  You get the medium heavy duty, wide track, but I don't know about ride quality, and I don't think they're available as low-floors.  Again, think about who will be using the vehicle(s), and whether low floors should be a factor.    

Another vehicle that has come out, but I know nothing about, is the Arboc Spirit of Mobility. http://www.arbocmobility.com/specs.html I have come to like low-floor vehicles. At our church, my wife and I are about the youngest members, and I already have 40 years in the bus business, so I don't generally sit at the kid's table elsewhere.  That means, I've come to like low floor buses.  It combines ease of access, make sure you're in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities access, and the low center of gravity.    

Another thing I thought of.  As a private motor carrier of passengers (PMCP), it may be necessary to get a federal number through the Motor Carrier Safety Administration - to be legal.  It's been several years since I looked at the requirements, so they may have changed.  I don't remember what the threshold is (possibly, vehicle size like the CDL requirement).  Remember, I'm prejudiced - the carrier (church) and the driver have lives in their hands.  I'm not only looking at liability issues (if we did, we'd have to acknowledge that it's cheaper to kill a passenger than to maim them) - but what it takes to not injure/kill them in the first place.  Driver training/qualifications, along with keeping good driver records, good vehicle maintenance, a vehicle that will pass the most stringent DOT inspection.  Yes, that is limiting the number of volunteer drivers - the downside.  However, it is doing what we can to postpone funerals, and avoid hospital visits.

David, you might want to follow up with a phone call to the Motor Carrier Safety Administration, and see what the requirement is for church buses, as private motor carriers of passengers.  That may help lead you in your thought process.

Arthur  

[belfert]

They use van cutaways as transit buses for local circulator bus routes where I live.  POS comes to mind when one rides one.  They shake, rattle, and vibrate like nothing else.  I wouldn't be surprised if they find loose screws all the time.  They seem to be replaced every few years with new vehicles.  They don't last like regular transits.

The regular bus routes use standard 40 and 60 foot transit buses and they ride much better than the cutaways.  The only problem is the routes that are contracted out.  The contractors mostly use old transits sold off by the government system.  Some of the buses run by contractors have bad trannies.  I swear it felt like the tranny was going to fall out on some of them.

My whole point is I wouldn't recommend a cutaway van for a church if you can help it.