Repower MC9 Conversion from 8V71

[cody]

Kyle, that was a remarkable post and one that is important for us all to read and take to heart, your right, we don't know what the future regulations will entail, but at the same time we can't just bury our heads and wait, the future starts today and we need to explore all available options, just because it doesn't make mechanical sence to someone thats turned a fair share of wrenches doesn't make the entire concept wrong.  Take into concideration what we already know, first is that the green community wants the 2 strokes gone, as a matter of fact they want almost all gas or diesel engines gone and be assured they have the money available to them to make a lot of noise.  The world is changing around us and the more options available regardless of a persons convictions are, the better off we all are.

[cody]

Yes, a PE registry number does make an engineer, registered engineers often have people working for them, that doesn't make those people engineers, lawyers often have paralegals and clerks working for them but that doesn't make those people lawyers and the people that work in a doctors office arn't always doctors.  I have engineering degree's but I'm not an engineer, nor do I claim to be although I do understand the process.  If a person is accredited and licensed then I applaud them for taking the time to do more than make the claim, many people here may have worked for engineers but that doesn't magically turn them into a PE tho they might be qualified, it reguires the documentation to sign on the bottom of the page.

[Len Silva]

I respectfully submit that it is not the green community that you need to worry about.  Who profits when an old technology is banned except the providers of the new technology?

The old two strokes have no commercial viability but I doubt very much that they will ever be banned from non commercial use.  There numbers will continue to dwindle until there are just not enough of them left for the government to worry about.

[cody]

I'd like to ask Don to give his thoughts on the 2 strokes future, he is neck deep in the problem now and i'd very much like to know what he envisions 10 years down the road.

[kyle4501]

Yes, a PE registry number does make an engineer . . .  

from:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineer

Definition of ENGINEER
1: a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2obsolete : a crafty schemer : plotter
3a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4: a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus

Hmmm, No mention of registry.
Looks like someone needs to straighten those buffoons out. . .

Unless you are confusing a Professional Engineer with an engineer.

[arl]

Hey y'all.  This is awesome!  Really.  

At first I was reticent to post because I figured everyone would yawn at the newbie asking a dumb question.  88 (mostly:) relevant and courteous replies later I'm glad I did.  There's been a LOT of great info shared here -which will be useful for years to come.  RoyJ chimed in with a really provocative concept, and has taken it on the chin and still stood his ground with real numbers - thanks RoyJ.  Others have brought up excellent counterpoints - one in particular about sustained heavy duty operation of an RV/Coach over many hours or even days is pretty compelling for leaning away from the ragged edge of efficiency.  So there are both sides to consider, and both are VALUABLE.  Let's keep treating each other that way  [no, I'm not an egalitarian or a sissy, I just know that humility and honest consideration are invaluable in teams working toward a common goal, in this case the discovery of a better solution to repowering these God-forsaken 8V71 engines   - just having a little fun there !! ]

Now... my problem is I still don't know what to do.  I know it's not all y'all's (I live in Southern KY and the previous is actually acceptable speech here - no matter that it violates basic laws of punctuation) job to solve my problem, and I'm quite sure I could spend time and money  (if I had either) and get the solution without help, but that's stupid when there is very likely someone or several someones out there who already know the answer, or are reasonably close.

Isn't there something BETWEEN an ISB and an ISM?  Based on the discussion (ISB too small, ISM too big) I would think that we could narrow this thing and focus on whatever that is.  I asked a while back about it.

I know almost diddly about diesel engines, but my boys have worked with the Matneys three times now taking ours apart and fixing burned valves, so I know enough about the one I have to say I hate it - passionately... viscerally... loathe that thing.  Just thinking about keeping it makes me nervous and fidgety, even if it is the cheapest route in the short term.

So I'm still hoping beyond hope that folks will grant me extended grace and keep the suggestions coming.  Help this husband and father of eleven move the crew from one place to the next "Singing As We Go"!  Thanks to all y'all VERY MUCH.

warm regards to all,
Alan  [PE License Nos.: KY 26178, NY074491-1, OH 60047]

PS.  On the comment about posting PE numbers for engineers, just because you are an engineer and have a PE license doesn't mean you know anything about diesel engines.  I can't even fix my radio if it breaks.  I can do world-class work in a VERY narrow field, which generally makes me useless for most other things and almost always looking for work.  If I'd known this ahead of time I would have been a doctor

All the same, I agree with Cody that folks who really know their equations would be invaluable help here.

[cody]

Alan, eleven kids? wow you need more help than is available here. lol

[bevans6]

You also need more buses that are available here!   

[luvrbus]

Well I am not a engineer ,doctor or lawyer only the general business degree for me, but I did pay for 2 engineering degrees from Texas A&M ,1 law degree from SMU and 1 DVM from Texas A&M so I know where to get answers paybacks are hell just ask my kids   lol  fwiw the DVM  degree was the killer


good luck

[cody]

Mine were paid for by the state of michigan, under governor blanchard, he felt that state employees could benefit by continuing education so I was able to get my engineering degree's and one in business administration and one in criminal justice, then governor engler realized I was spending most of my time in the classroom and made me return to work, I had high hopes to be the first state employee to retire from the classroom setting.  The beauty of it all were that I got 4 promotions while still in the classroom, life was good for a while.  Right now I'm paying for 2 medical degrees, one will be a radiologist and the other is now going for her RN, she started as a CNA, then LPN, now heading for RN while I head for broke.  I agree the DVM would be the killer, jamie talked about it for a while before deciding on radiology, for DVM she would have had to go to the university of michigan for it and the cost was an eye opener, with both in private schools now it's hard enough, but I do get some great sweat shirts and t-shirts, the school is Finlandia University and I sent bryce a great FU shirt.

[John316]

Clifford,

I am impressed. No wonder you were building those big box stores. I knew all along you were one bright bulb....

Alan,

I sent you a PM (personal message). Let me know if you don't get it.

God bless,

John

[kyle4501]

. . . .Isn't there something BETWEEN an ISB and an ISM?  Based on the discussion (ISB too small, ISM too big) I would think that we could narrow this thing and focus on whatever that is.  I asked a while back about it.

Understanding you absolutely loathe & despise your existing engine, I would advise to re-power. No sense in having the bus if you want to kill it. 
That said, with an eye on the available funding, I'd suggest a proper tune up on what you have to minimize the pain & suffering while you drive it 1 more season. During that season, look for the ideal donor truck or bus to be used to provide for your re-power. Also keep in mind that if you increase HP of the engine, you may have to increase the radiator heat rejection capacity. (4strokes seem to reject less heat, but you don't need too many unexpected surprises.) Also during this extra season, keep notes on your existing engine, they will help when it comes time to sell it after the re-power.

When looking for a donor truck, consult local truck wrecking yards & find out what is common vs what is junk. Look for a donor truck you can get the whole engine, transmission & associated gadgets. Make sure the transmission gearing will work with your rear axle ratio. Some garbage trucks have the overdrive gears electronically locked out - they are still there, you just have to reprogram them. Measure the different engines to find what fits most easily.

[cody]

Another thought on the repower, a mistake I almost made, if you decide on a donor truck for an engine take note on the positioning of the various components, I almost opted for one with the top mounted turbo, while the turbo could have been moved or the floor raised it would have been extra work and extra expense and yes, keep all available documentation.

[bevans6]

I stand by my original advice.  Way back on page one   

Your requirements = Modest power, reliable, efficient, automatic, and - critically perhaps - finished by January 2011.  Find a take-out 6V92/740 Allison from another MCI MC-9 and slot it in, and hope it runs better than your current engine.  Why - it's 350 hp, it's more economical (than a trashed 8V-71), it's dead reliable, it's not electronic, it's a dead reliable transmission, and MC-9's came that way from the factory so it's an OEM install.  You could do it in a week.  Or less if you got set up right.

If you want to spend $20 or $30 grand for a four stroke, the Series 50 installs I saw impressed the heck out of me.  But you won't be on the road in January unless you have it done in a pro shop and that puts the price at the high end of the scale.  To some that's a lot of money and sweat equity doing it themselves, to others they just pull out the check-book.  But a lot of people do go that route and brag on the result.

Brian

[Len Silva]

[NOTE:  This is a parallel post to something I put on another bus site.  If that's not kosher, please let me know.  I'm really just trying to get this problem solved, not trying to be a pain.  Thanks!]

Howdy everyone. I'm quite sure you've answered this question many times, but my searches through the archives aren't getting my the answers I'm looking for. If you know of an exhaustive post already done, please point me to it. If you have ideas, please let me know.

I am desperately seeking a solution to the repowering of my existing 8V71 and Fuller 5spd manual to something else. ANything else. I hate that engine. It's loud and sucks fuel and pukes oil. It has no turbo, the tranny has no overdrive. It's killing me one mile at a time and I want to upgrade. It's burned four valves in two years, uses a gallon of oil every 400 miles, and just badly needs an overhaul (which the previous owner said it already had). I'd rather spend the money on some improvements.

SO... what's the optimal engine/tranny combo for repowering an MCI-9 with 8V71? I'm a guy that just wants to get me and my family from point A to point B reliably and as efficiently as possible. I don't need extra horsepower, I don't need fancy anything - well... cruise and jakes would be nice if easily incorporated. I'd like the engine to have turbo and the tranny to be either autoshift or automatic, though this is not essential as me and my kids have learned on this Eaton Fuller 5spd and are comfortable with manual.

Also, where are salvage sources for these powerplants?  Wrecked trucks, fleet sales, etc.?  Any help is greatly appreciated.
Many many many thanks in advance for your expert and thoughtful help getting me back in service.

I just went back and looked at your first post in this long thread.  I am certainly not an expert, but would suggest a couple of things.

A gallon in 400 miles; engine is shot or just the wrong oil. Burning valves would suggest that you may be lugging it.  If it literally stinks, it may well be worn out or badly out of tune.  A good running 8V-71 actually smells kind of sweet.

If I understand you correctly, you are not into big expensive projects, don't really need a lot more power, and while you would prefer an automatic, you can live with the stick.

If the previous owner actually did do some kind of overhaul, it may just be a matter of running the rack and changing the oil.

I suggest an evaluation by a good two stroke guy and then either overhaul what you have or replace with a similar engine.  While it will never be a hot rod, that engine has driven a lot of buses for millions of miles, and properly set up can be a pleasure to drive.  My experience is with Eagles, but the same basic drive train.

On the other hand, if your check book is too fat to fit in your back pocket, there is nothing you cannot do as far as a repower.