cheapy gen set

[Van]

I have a Honda 5000, runs both 1350 roof tops, I would never run my gen while the bus was in the house, just my way I guess  

[luvrbus]

Don't remove the wheels Van 


good luck

[cody]

Wise move van, running the generator while the bus is inside the house is not good lol. ( how tall are your house ceilings or is that your great room lol) hmmmmmmmm detriot diesel and white carpeting lol

[Van]

Too late, the wheels are off Oh! the shame of it all!

[Sean]

Several have taken me to task on the assertion that permanently installing a "contractor" generator is illegal.

I will refer you to the National Electrical Code, which is law in all 50 states, 2008 edition (most current), wherein you will find the following:

"551.32 Other Sources. Other sources of ac power, such as inverters, motor generators, or engine generators, shall be listed for use in recreational vehicles and shall be installed in accordance with the terms of the listing."

(underline emphasis mine).  If you look in the manuals, tags, or labels affixed to such contractor generators you will find the listing number, either from Underwriters Laboratories (UL) or other recognized listing agencies, and the number will correlate to a specific listing or listings for specific uses.  You will NOT find permanent "recreational vehicle" installation in the listings for these generators, which makes using them a clear and indisputable violation of section 551.32 of the NEC.  That makes it ILLEGAL in all 50 states.

Now, whether any state will actually cite you for this is another matter entirely.  Enforcement is a completely different matter from legality.  However, let your generator do some damage to anyone with a brain and an attorney, and I can assure you that the illegality of your installation will become a matter of "fact" (as such word is understood in legal circles) before you can so much as look that up in a legal dictionary.

None of which is really relevant to my main point, which is that such usage is also dangerous.  These generators are made for temporary use outdoors in open air, not enclosed in a vehicle.

And Niles is quite correct:  using a generator or any other UL-listed appliance in contravention of the installation instructions of the manufacturer violates the listing and makes the usage unlawful.  Period. The same logic applies, for example, to using a heat gun (a UL-listed device) to dry your hair -- no matter how much a heat gun looks like a hair dryer, that's not a listed use and it is a violation of the listing to use it that way.  I would bet no one on this board would do such a thing, yet here you are arguing that these listing requirements don't apply to you "so long as you use common sense."  I can assure you, the law provides no such "common sense" exemption

Lastly, to Dan: if you are going to keep repeating the "only 60% correct" rubric, I am going to ask you to prove it.  Pick 100 of my posts at random, and show me that I was in error in 40 of them, and I will let you continue to say this without challenge.  Otherwise, I would respectfully ask you to refrain from what I now consider to be a personal attack (and will plead same with the moderators) on my reputation here.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[luvrbus]

Cody, Van doesn't need a DD on his carpet Don Fairchild marked his territory lol  if you ever need carpet cleaned Van can do it in hurry when his wife is on the way home.


good luck

[Sean]

... can you tell me what state that law is quoted from?  ...  A search of the MCL (michigan compliled laws) doesn't produce any thing that fits the description offered

Michigan code is governed by their Department of Energy, Labor & Economic Growth in the 2008 ELECTRICAL CODE RULES, Part 8, which reads in part:

"Rule 801 National electrical code; adoptions by reference; inspection; purchase. (1) The standards contained in the national electrical code, 2008 edition, except sections 501.30B, 502.30B, 503.30B, 505.25B, 506.25B, 547.1 to 547.10, and Annex H, as published by the national fire protection association (NFPA), shall govern the installation, replacement, alteration, relocation, and use of electrical systems or material. With the exceptions noted, the national electrical code is adopted in these rules by reference."

So, yes, it is law in Michigan.  However, since the DoEL&EG has little or no enforcement capability in RV construction, concentrating instead on fixed structures, I would guess that there is no enforcement of section 551, even though that is not one of the sections explicitly excluded in the Michigan code adoption.

Hope that clears it up for you.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[cody]

Sean I truly apologize to you for doubting your absolute authority in all matters but unfortunately locating errors in your postings is not difficult and has been done by others, the part you fail to address is the NEC listings are not fully inclusive and that fact is listed in the manual, I also have the manual, the manual is not the bible as most engineers decree but often a guideline, for the manual to be all inclusive would create a book that only an attorney could love, my engineering degree is posted on the wall in my office as I'm sure yours is too, many here carry the degree of engineer tho many haven't attained the certification to actually be listed as such, another factor are the many kinds of engineering degrees available.  I know how difficult it can be to be accepted as a highly respected individual as you are and we acknoledge that fact, however no one expects perfection in all areas and that is sometimes a difficult pill to swallow.  If the manual were all inclusive, Dick Wright would be out of business as would many others, if you check further into the manual you'll find the rational danger listed by toxicity.  Read further my friend and it'll clear up the confusion.

[luvrbus]

 The post of Niles is copied from the OSHA hand book on generators used by contractors by all manufactures.

good luck  

[cody]

I don't mean to impune anyones reputation, as we all know reputations are performance based and subject to adjustment as performances are enhanced or otherwise enterpreted, here on the board it's very difficult to accurately determine the actual performance level of any ones expertise based on their own renditions so careful research is needed to determine the accuracy of a statement, sometimes those statements are viewed in different ways by different people, the very fact that a person is listed with a PE registry number speaks volumes about their credibility, in my case I had a different career in motion so didn't follow thru with the PE registry after attaining the degree's. In regards to the NEC, one section leads to another section and sometimes it takes several sections to acurately interpret the statement made in the first section as many sections are deliberately left vague so that they can be further defined by another section, for that reason fully inclusive statements are not only hard to find but almost impossible to include.

[cody]

One interesting question would be my honda 3000 inverter generator, it is listed with an available wheel kit, that would indicate portability, it also has an available remote start, a high capacity fuel tank which can be added and permanently installed for a longer run time, it also comes with an onboard mounted muffler but has a remote muffler/tailpipe kit available, this list of features would place it in several catagories from contractor use to permanently installed use, this creates confusion as to which code takes priority in the application of the unit, with the available components it can wear many hats, this is the case with many generators, the usage is not clearly defined and as such cannot be closely regulated by statute as statutes differ with each application.

[Iceni John]

These generators are made for temporary use outdoors in open air, not enclosed in a vehicle.

I presently use my generator for about 20 minutes a month, or less, and as I have stated it is always in the open air when used.   When I get my PV panels my generator usage will then drop to essentially zero.

What is the greater risk of fire or malfunction  -  my generator used for about 4 hours per year, or others' generators used for more hours than that each day?   If I planned on using a generator as my primary means of producing electricity (as most folk here do), I would scrimp and save to buy a "proper" RV generator.   I prefer to put my money instead into a PV system that will then produce all the power I need for free for as long as I ever have my bus.

Let's not all get our undergarments in a torsionally-dislocated state.
John  

[niles500]

Luvr - What I quoted from is in a link at the bottom of my post - You are correct that OSHA as well as other agencies REQUIRE these types of disclosures to PROTECT the public - Whether one chooses to heed the warning is up to them - If you choose not to heed the warning and some one was to be injured or killed, beyond the Civil liabilities, you may be charged with any of a multitiude of criminal charges up to and including manslaughter. Although Cody would like a specific codification dealing with contractor/portable  generators for every state in the union - That is not the case as it is a matter of "Common Law"  - If you require further explanation any member of the Bar can be of help as it is taught in Lawyer 101 - FWIW

[Sean]

What is the greater risk of fire or malfunction  -  my generator used for about 4 hours per year, or others' generators used for more hours than that each day?

Sorry, John, but my answer here is that yours is the more risky usage, compared to a properly rated and installed generator.

...   I prefer to put my money instead into a PV system that will then produce all the power I need for free for as long as I ever have my bus.

Hmm.  I'd like to see the details of such a system.

Lets assume you managed to completely cover the roof of your rig (call it 300 square feet) with the most efficient panels available today -- about 50 watt-hours per square foot (depending on location and insolation).  You'd get about 15 kWh per day of power -- just enough to run a single air conditioner.  On a temperate day, you'd only need perhaps a third of this power to run most of the rest of your systems.

BTW, 300 square feet of these panels will cost you around $22,000 today.

In more practical terms, you will be lucky to get 100% of your non-A/C needs met with a more conventional PV system.

I applaud you for wanting to use more renewable energy.  But you will not likely eliminate completely your need for a generator.  Neither will this save you money -- as I have written here many times, and also in a recent magazine column, PV power has its place in this community for a variety of reasons, but long-term cost savings is not one of them. In fact, it takes anywhere from 15-30 years to "break even" on a solar installation, and many never do.  So, frankly, from a safety standpoint as well as cost-effectiveness of power produced, you will be better off putting that money into a proper generator installation.

Let's not all get our undergarments in a torsionally-dislocated state.

John, I don't have my knickers in a twist, nor do I have any investment in how you do your conversion (so long as you're not parked next to me, as previously noted).  However, many less experienced folks follow along on these threads, and they deserve to hear what the safety (and legal) risks are with doing these things.  If three people roll out in a thread like this and say "I did xyz," even if xyz is unlawful and unsafe, and no one challenges that, then those readers might get the mistaken and very dangerous impression that xyz is the right way to do things.

So I will repeat it again for the benefit of our audience in Internet-land.  Using a generator made only for outdoor use inside of an RV compartment is DANGEROUS and also UNLAWFUL.  Now if you choose to ignore this advice, I will not be the one to stop you.  But do not expect me to remain silent when anyone advances the argument that this practice is either safe or legal.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[cody]

Sean, I'll leave this thread with a deep bow to your infallability and accept your 100% accuracy rate as new 'common' law, several people said your full of poo on this topic including the provider of generators that advertises right here in the magazine, an attorney that I contacted this morning, Mark Wisti says your wrong, however, as usual, you right as you always are, I must caution you tho the inability to ever be proven to be in error sometimes leads to crucifiction. For the others here on the board, I'd like to mention just one thing, don't always believe what you read on the internet, it could possibly be wrong, always double check the information and even if it's proclaimed to be code, find the code and read it for yourself, it is possible that it was misquoted or the application misunderstood, remember there are several engineers on the board and they don't always agree, tho they may have part of the information correct that doesn't mean they have it all correct. With that, I admit defeat and I apologize for again being wrong.