Oil change today!

[Iceni John]

I took my bus to ABC Bus this morning (just down the road from where I keep it), and for just over $200 they drained out the old 40-weight which wasn't CF-2 (yeah, I know, but at least it wasn't multi-weight in there!), put in 27 quarts of 76 T5X straight 40-weight (it has 1% ash and is CF-2, just in case you're wondering), changed the filter, screwed on my new Fumoto T-202 oil drain valve, added a quart of Penncool 3000 SCA because the coolant's glycol reading was too high, checked the hoses and brakes, washed it, and pronounced it good to go.   I think the ABC techs got a kick out of my yellow 2-stroke oldie, among all the shiny new Van Hools and MCIs there.

Interestingly, while I was there a Landoll came in with a new Van Hool T2145 which had suffered a brake fire  -  there were scorch and smoke marks up the bodyside above the right drive wheel.   I wonder if a dragging brake caused that?   It's lucky the tire didn't burst, or worse.

Even with the SCA, my coolant still needs to be flushed and changed, so when I can afford it I will go back to have it done.   2.5 hours at $88/hour, plus coolant and filter, so I'm guessing between $300 and $400 to keep the cavitation gremlins away.   This morning was less expensive than if I had changed the oil myself:  around here Delo 100 is $75 per 5-gallon pail, so two pails plus a Fleetguard filter is hardly cheaper than having ABC do it.

On Memorial Day weekend I will be driving up to the high desert for the second annual Buses Gone Wild get-together, where us Gillig and Crown folk can swap tall stories and consume lots of good food and liquid.   Should be fun.   Let's hope nothing unexpected happens, like last year when my fan's hydraulic hose burst on Memorial Day coming home  -  I've got Good Sam ERS now, which gives me peace of mind.

John

[Ed Hackenbruch]

You are going to like the Fumoto oil drain valve. Makes it much easier and cleaner to change oil or to get a sample for testing.

[Iceni John]

One more thing  -  I was in Pep Boys a few days ago and saw they had Shell Rotella T CF-2 oil for $13.99/gallon, but only in straight 30-weight!   I asked the counter-dude if they sell much of it, but needless to say he didn't know.   (I got the impression he didn't know that 2-stroke diesels even existed!)   Who would be buying this oil in warm Southern California?   I hope it's not us 2-strokers, because it's too thin for here.   Presumably enough of it is selling to justify Pep Boys stocking it.   Curious.

John

[Barn Owl]

Even with the SCA, my coolant still needs to be flushed and changed

How did you come to that conclusion?

$15 gal for oil is outrageous! Do you have a distributor there that can do better than that? In Nov '09 I bought Exxon XD-3 for $5 gal but the catch was I had to buy it in a 55 gal drum. Before that I was paying $7 gal in 12qt cases. Is it a Cal thing?

[Iceni John]

Even with the SCA, my coolant still needs to be flushed and changed

How did you come to that conclusion?

Unfortunately I don't know exactly what coolant is in there now.   All I know it's regular car-type green stuff, so who knows what the phosphorus, calcium and silicates levels are and what its ph is?   I didn't have a full analysis done today, just a refractometer check that revealed a glycol reading of 12 (apparently it should be -10).   The place that changed my coolant when I bought the bus turned out to be not somewhere I should have had do any work  -  they put in 15-30W non-CF2 oil, assuring me it was what they always put in Detroits!   I changed it out to regular 40-weight for the drive home, but after learning more and reading Detroit's literature on the subject I don't want to take any chances.   You live and learn!

Maybe I can find someone to do a full chemical analysis of my coolant with today's SCA in it, then I'll know for sure if more SCA will work, or if a full flush is needed.

Yup, SoCal prices are crazy high for the small amounts I would buy.   For now ABC is the better deal for me.

[Barn Owl]

The regular automotive "green stuff" is all you need if your power plant is an 8V71, 671 etc. If you have a 92 series, then you need the extra additives that are necessary with the wet sleeve design. Keep in mind I am talking about additives that are above and beyond what is found in automotive anti-freeze.

[Garymci5]

CF-2 rated oil was discontinued by API. It's superceded by the newer ratings.  However, some oils still carry the CF-2 ratings. Seems to apply to products that have been on the market for some time which where licensed a long time ago.

API Announces Discontinuation of Licensing Diesel Engine Oils with API CG-4 and API CF-2 Specification: http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/new/index.cfm

Anyway, the whole issue about straight 40 weight vs 30 weight (30 weight is used in the 6V's) leaves something to be desired.  I've seen enough oil test data to see how some oils will shear out or break down from fuel contamination VERY quickly from the SAE rating. A lot of gear oils do this and barely meet the API standards for anything past a short testing period- there is a HUGE difference in the qualities available.  Some oils have a much higher Kinematic Viscosity, and actually measures the EXACT viscosity, not just the rating.  There are a wide range of K.V. for various oils.

Originally I was using the 15-40 (AME), but the 20-50 is even more robust, even more so that their 30 weight.  Really what we should be looking at is the Kinematic Viscosity rating. Not easy to find with companies that either don't care or don't want you to know anything.

I am personally using this in my coach with a 8V71N:

AMSOIL Synthetic 20W-50 Premium Protection Motor Oil is a multi-use, premium synthetic lubricant for applications that require or benefit from a higher viscosity oil. It is recommended for air and liquid cooled, large or small gasoline and diesel engines, transmissions and chaincase applications where 20W-50 oil is required with any of the following specifications:

    * API SL, SJ, SH, SG
    * API CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF, CF-2
    * ISO-L-EMA • Caterpillar ECF-1
    * JASO MA (Motorcycle) • MAN 271/3275 • MTU Type 2
    * Cummins 20071/20072/20076/20077 • VDS-2, VDS
    * Mack EO-M+ • ACEA A3/B3, E3, E5 • MB 228.3, 229.1
    * Detroit Diesel 93K214


If anyone has this data, or others to share it would be possible to compare the data to make some type of performance comparison.  My real world experience has me convinced, but am always interested to learn more.

Since my coach sits a lot, doesn't get enough miles on it, start/stops a lot; it needs extra protection compared to how the DD were designed to run: hard and long.  I don't want my seals being attacked by crank case acids and causing leaks while it sits. 

Started the bus last week after sitting for 7 months plus (even forgot the master switch on; didn't even charge the batteries).  Wasn't totally sure what to expect......

Depressed the start button and about 1 second later it was smoothly running, not even a low idle speed. Couldn't even hear it turn over, too. NO smoking at all- none.  Oil pressure jumped right up like a car, too. I like my oil!   

Speaking of "outrageous" it's about $34 a gallon    (but effectively costs about $11-12 p/gallon; sure you can ask "how??").

Barn Owl: thanks for mentioning the coolant type.  I had forgotten about the dry and wet sleeve versions.

[gus]

Well, now that I read the link I have no idea what to expect the next time I buy oil??

[Garymci5]

Keep looking forward and onward.  Oil products have gotten a lot better over the years, just NOT better for our old double pumper 2 strokes.  Newer oil has greatly reduced additives from the 80's and 90's, which anything older was designed for, especially diesels.

The industry has been driven by emission standards which in turn has taken a lot of the protection out of oil.  Of course the base stocks are important, not just additives, but they sure are when base stocks are Type 1, or maybe a blend of 1 & 2.  These are the lowest quality oil products available. It's a blending balance of the cost of additives to the cost of base stocks.

Even Synthetics are often blended with lower tiered oil types.  There is probably a bigger difference in quality in this category.  However, any full synthetic is better than fossil oil.  Oddly enough anything below Type 1, is actually a Type 5, which generally isn't used for automotive oils-- peanut oil, animal byproducts and such.  Oils are also rated by their Viscosity Index, somewhere I saw a chart that started at about 95 VI and went up. Somewhere around 140 VI was where mass produced synthetics can be.  Could probably find it if anyone is interested, as I recall a correlation between VI and KV ratings....

Premium brands will use Type 4 PAO fully synthetic base stocks, but of course it's expensive.  Don't assume everyone does, because, well, they don't.  When Big Oil spends gobs of money on advertising, one can guess where the quality goes!

This gives a good idea of the various standardized performance categories for oil. Just click on the picture to enlarge it.

http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/APIComparativeOilTest.aspx

Amsoil certainly isn't the only ultra premium oil available, nor the only good quality oil around.  There are some excellent European brand oils available, but are hard to find and expensive.  However, overall it's getting very difficult to find CF-2 rated oil in the proper viscosity or Kinematic Viscosity range.  Our choices for 40wt oil are only getting more limited at time goes on.  For those that feel only a 40wt will work, aren't looking at the big picture so clearly with so many developments taking place in the last 15 years or so.

Speaking for myself, I can't afford to have my engine fixed or even a rear main seal replaced, unless I do it myself (I could; otherwise wouldn't own a bus).  I like the easy starting, fast oil pressure buildup, reduced smoking, oil that stays cleaner longer, knowing the extreme TBN rating helps protect it when she sits for awhile.  Recently that was 7 months straight. NO i don't run it ever few weeks or months and have come to believe it to be much worse that sitting for extended periods of time.  Last bus I bought sat for 3 years on a fresh rebuild (2K documented miles), thankfully with clean oil, once fuel primed up, started right up with no smoke

I also like knowing I'm using a stable oil that doesn't change much (172 VI index!!) whether cold or hot.  At least I can buy a quality product at wholesale, that's made in the USA, has a proven history and best yet is meant for my application with all the additives needed PLUS top rated base stocks to support extended use and better protection (than any fossil oil could ever hope to achieve).

I like saving money and getting something more at the same time. I use Amsoil in my truck (that's still under warranty), cars, shifter kart, lawn mower, generator, anything I want to last or is in storage a lot.

Sorry to sound like Amsoil is the only thing in the world, but I've been at this oil thing for over 20 years.  It all started when I had a major oil problem in the late 80's, caused me to wake up.

An industry tech friend of mine (ex- Formula 1) will be providing me some inside information (he spends $$$$ per year for elite industry subscriptions) and offered to give me 300 page test with just about every top quality oil available tested  He told me the punchline, but can't wait to see the data (hopefully I can understand most of it; I assure you what I've outlined here is FAR from technical).

I need to get the rig ready for an up coming trip, so better stop yakking so much