Inverter input

[bryanhes]

I have been looking at pure sine wave inverters and think I would like to have at least 4000W. I have looked at Sean's Trace SW4024 and know they are discontinued but still see some for sale. I saw that the XW4024 replaced it and is a 120/240-volt AC, split-phase, inverter/charger that incorporates a DC to AC inverter, a battery charger, and an AC auto-transfer switch. I do like that it eliminates the need to stack.

I did come across another forum that stated they were not rated for use in Land vehicles and marine craft. And if it is UL1741 rated is it not legal for a conversion? I did see that the one used in Sean's Neoplan is a UL1741 listing as well.

It seems that it would be a good unit for a conversion although it does not have the auto gen start like the SW4024 but they offer it as an accessory. Does anyone have any knowledge of this unit good or bad?

Thanks,
Bryan

[Sean]

My personal opinion (and it's just that) is that the older SW4024 is a better product.  I would look for a refurbished SW4024 or SW4024-MC2 rather than going for the SW-plus 4024.

I am also a little uneasy about using a unit in an RV (or boat) that has never been submitted to testing for that application.  With the older SW4024 product, testing to UL-458 as well as ABYC standards was completed as part of the -MC2 certification process.  You benefit from this testing even if you buy the standard model (which does not carry the 458 listing) because the two models are physically identical (only the software is different).

All that being said, in terms of "current" products with the coveted load-support feature, unique to grid-tie capable inverters, the SW-plus series is really the only available choice.

JMO and FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[TomC]

When I bought my Trace 2512, I could have bought two that would be stacked to create 5000 watts of power.  The gal selling it to me asked if I had a Diesel generator.  I said yes, and she suggested I just buy the one inverter and then start the Diesel genset when needing more. I do not have any motor loads on my inverter (if you count the microwave fan and the exhaust fan over the stove).  I do have some resistance loads-the electric heater in the bathroom and the second water heater (I have two-one feeding into the next with the second one powered through the inverter for hot water going down the road).  I realize that many have powered one sometimes two air conditioners with the inverter, and you can save fuel that way.  I like the simplest method, and just running the genset for heavy loads (like the A/C) is my way of doing it.  Good Luck, TomC

[belfert]

The XW4024 is basically a solar inverter and not designed for mobile use.  I looked at this one when I thought I needed a new inverter earlier this year.  It is also expensive.

I would look at the Magnum MS4024 if 120 volt is good enough, or the MS4024AE if you need to have 120/240 volt.  The MS4024AE may not be certified for RV use.  It also only has a two pole 30 amp transfer switch so it cannot power the entire coach when using 50 amp service.

[bevans6]

If the primary application was 120 volt power derived from the 24 volt Delco 50DN bus alternator while on the road to run a single 15K BTU rooftop ac unit, what would the recommendation be?  Would the pair of 8D start batteries be enough battery bank for this, IF the understanding was that it was for on-road only?  Would adding say 250 AH of coach battery be required?

Obviously the inverter would get used for other things, but this is the "killer application" that would make me spring for a big PSW inverter.

Brian

[bryanhes]

Sean,

One of the reasons I looked at the XW4024 was simply because it had the 240v capability without having to stack. It appears that this unit would be less $$$ than to buy two. I do not know that I would need it but I guess my thoughts are that I would rather have more than not enough. Although off the top of my head I am not sure what I would need 240v for. I guess if for some reason i did I could utilize the gen for that. I did look at the MC2 and see that it was UL-458 listed and can see where it and the standard should be equal.

As the standard SW4024 has the battery equalization feature that be nice as well. I will do some more looking around for pricing on the SW4024.
From what I see the only difference between the SW4024 and the "Plus" model is the gen start module is built in and on the "Plus" model you have to purchase it seperately. If this is the only difference wouldn't the standard SW4024 be a better choice?

Thanks,
Bryan

[Tenor]

Bryan,
I have the SW4024 with the generator start function and I LOVE it!  I'd hate to have to add it later.  I have a small battery bank (2 smallish deep cycle and 2 marine start/deep cycle) that powers the inverter while dry camping and for our little electrical use (we use propane for the fridge) we last about a day and then have to recharge.  Going down the road, I tie 2 gp 31 start batteries into the system and that will allow the bus engine alternator to run 2 roof airs.  It all works great!  Good luck!

Glenn

[David Anderson]

I can't speak with great authority on the sw4024 as I have the sw2512.  I imagine they are the same with the 4024 having much more grunt.  I can't see where you would ever need 240v that wouldn't require you to hook to a grid.  Like TomC said, keep it simple.  Just hook the inverter to the stuff you always need, (refer, micro, tv,) and use the pass through feature when on the grid or genny. 

I have the autostart and use it sometimes if dry camping.  It is a nice feature. 

One thing I found out on my SW2512 is that while driving down the road and my house bank is merged with the alternator and my genny is on, also, the Trace will shed the ac amps downward and scavenge the alternator power all the way down to the float voltage setting I have programmed into the Trace.  It could be as much as 18-20 AC amps.   (I have a 350amp alternator)
I guess you could set the voltage higher than the alternator output, but that would require a program change at each campsite stop, a bit inconvenient.   

I therefore always disengage the house bank at the driver's cockpit when the genny is running to empty the load on the alternator and use that horsepower for the drive wheels.   My genny likes big loads anyway.  13kw kubota. 

Just something to think about.

David

[luvrbus]

David, for Bryan to have a good cook top he has to use 240v or propane the 110v cook tops are a joke.
I draw 240v from my 2512 stacks for cooktop on the road but the way to go now are the induction type tops FWIW. 




good luck

[Sean]

Sorry, I missed the XW part of the original post.  My earlier remarks concerned the SW-Plus 4024, which was the direct replacement for the old SW4024.

That product, while still widely available from dealers as new, has also since been discontinued in favor of the new XW4024.

I do not have any direct experience with the new XW series.  In addition to offering direct split-phase output (and input), it is claimed to have superior surge management capabilities.  As you've noted, however, it also has not been submitted to 458 testing, and I do not expect it ever will be.

Frankly, unless you really and truly need the 240 for something, I can't see it being worth the money (over $3k, vs. SW4024's still being widely available for half that) or the possible consequences of using an unlisted inverter on a coach.  Also, my earlier remarks about the old product being better are still relevant, in the sense that Xantrex's build quality went downhill significantly after the Trace buyout and the movement of all manufacturing off shore.  I am hoping that we will see a reversal of this trend under the new owners, Schneider Electric (owners of Square-D).

At this writing, the SW4024-MC2 (and its sibling, the SW2512-MC) are the only UL-458 inverter chargers with load support capability ever sold.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[Sean]

David, for Bryan to have a good cook top he has to use 240v or propane the 110v cook tops are a joke.
I draw 240v from my 2512 stacks for cooktop on the road but the way to go now are the induction type tops ...

Induction hobs are widely available now in 120-volt.  If you intend to run an electric cooktop from battery power, I strongly recommend you to bite the bullet, buy the steel cookware, and go induction.  Among other things, this will let you run your cooktop on shore hookups less than 50 amps, which otherwise would require you to have some sort of inverter or transformer arrangement to make 240 from 120.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[bryanhes]

Sean,

I noticed the "Plus" unit had been discontinued and that the XW seemed to have taken its place. I have seen the XW for in the $2600.00 range. Although that is more than I had anticipated to spend. But if I was sure I would need 240v I think the cost would be less with the XW than with stacking two.

Do you know of anything on the "Plus" series that makes it a better choice than the standard SW4024. I would think that the advantage to the standard unit would be the auto start module vs. having to purchase it separately. To me that is another way of squeezing an extra dollar out of you for the option. Unless you know of any other benefit to the "Plus" series? I think I would look for a standard SW4024.

As for needing 240v, I do not think I will and did see the induction hob that you have on the Neoplan. I have also seen them in a two and three hob combination. I like that idea as well for the counter space if needed. We also use a Nuwave oven (it cooks using conduction, convection and infrared) at home and it is great. We purchased it with the intent of using it on the bus as you could store it away and not use up counter space. And it uses 120v. Anyway that was off the topic other than I am not sure what I would ever need 240v for other than the fact that I like to have more than needed than not enough in most cases.

I do agree with Sean about using UL listed items. If it was to cause a fire or some other catastrophic problem and it was the determined causing factor insurance would not pay one red cent to replace what was lost. And if someone was hurt the possibility of an impending lawsuit from our now sue happy nation   is not something I care to deal with.

Thanks again for the input guys,
Bryan

[Sean]

...
Do you know of anything on the "Plus" series that makes it a better choice than the standard SW4024.

No.  As I wrote earlier, I actually think the older model is a better product.  And you get the generator starting to boot.  Given a choice, I would but a refurbished SW4024 over a brand new SW-Plus 4024.

As for needing 240v, I do not think I will and did see the induction hob that you have on the Neoplan. I have also seen them in a two and three hob combination. I like that idea as well for the counter space if needed.

Just be careful with multi-burner units; many are 240-volt.  You may be better off with multiple individual hobs that are 120-volt each.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[bryanhes]

Sean,

For the money that was what I was thinking. I check out your blog often and your build so I figured you would have good knowledge of the units especially fulltiming as you do. Thanks for the input and I will check around on the hobs a little more.

I just missed out on this one here in Tulsa: http://tulsa.craigslist.org/ele/1501601401.html

The guy just sold it! It also came with some other things that could have been handy.

Thanks,
Bryan

[bryanhes]

Sean,

Do you or anyone else have any sources for refurbished or deep discounted xantrex SW4024? I have done several searches but not come up with much.

Thanks,
Bryan