House water pump dilemma.

[Chaz]

Actually, two things.

1) Is it at all advantageous to hook up two house water pumps in series or parallel? Just curious as I have two and thought there might be a benefit in some way or other. The one I use is only a year old and the other one is a bit older but in good shape.

2) When the water pump comes on, right when it quits, my stereo (car stereo) quits for a couple seconds. Why would that be?? I have a 24v. system and use a Vanner 12v. converter for all my 12v. needs. It's not THAT big of a deal, but a bit aggrevating at times.

Thanx!
   Chaz

[TomC]

Chaz- I use two Surflo Whisper Kings that are much less expensive then the variable speed jobs.  I was at a RV Rally in Albuquerque and a water pump expert was showing the water pumps.  He said that while variable speed pumps are nice and do provide pulse less water, they will goof up if any dirt, spike in voltage happens since they are electronic. The mechanically operated Whisper Kings, as the guy demonstrating the pumps put it-"are real work horses that rarely need work".  I can atest to that since mine have been in for 14 years with NO service at all being done on them.  They are plumbed in parallel so that when someone wants to take a shower, I turn both on so that there is not a pressure drop if another water source is used.  Then too you have a built in back up pump.
As to your pump affecting your stereo, maybe you need a line filter on your stereo, or a diode in line with the water pump to prevent electrical backfeed.  Your problems maybe from when the pump shuts off the Vanner converter creates a spike in voltage that the stereo has a built in spike protection shutting it off momentarily.  You should have the converter running through a single 12v battery, then the spikes will be softened.  Good Luck, TomC

[WEC4104]

It is pretty common to hook up two water pumps in parallel, and this has been discussed in some previous threads.  You can run them both at the same time to increase your GPM flow, or leave one turned off to be used as a secondary backup should the primary fail.  

If you run them both together, you just need to make sure you periodically test to see that they are both working.  It would be pretty easy to have one fail without you noticing it.  You could go 6 months with one dead pump and not find out about it until the second one developed a problem.

It would appear that the car stereo is sensitive to the voltage drop when the pump is initially turned on. I would first check the gauge of wire running to the stereo, and make sure it is adequately sized and not contributing to the voltage drop. If the wire size is fine and this becomes a constant problem, there is a workaround that would be pretty easy to implement. Car stereo stores and on-line places like Crutchfield.com sell power capacitors for car stereos which are designed to store and supply juice when the peak demand exceeds what the vehicle battery can maintain.  Mostly they are used for the big thumping bass units with large amps, and the capacitors give them the ability to handle momentary peaks in their power needs.  I would think that wiring one of these into your power feed to the stereo would take care of the drop out you experience.  

[BC Bus]

This brings up a question that I am facing.  What water pump are most of you using, gpm, brand, etc, expansion tank yes or no?

[Chaz]

Hey, thanx guys. As ususal, you guys on this site make having a bus possible.
I will hook the other pump up one of these days. I think it sounds like a good deal.
I'll also check Crutchfield - I ususally buy from them anyway - and see if they have something for that. Your analysis makes sense.
  Thanx again!!!
     Chaz

[WEC4104]

I mentioned Crutchfield as a source, because I have had positive dealings with them and they are very knowledgeable.  I feel I can trust the info from them, and when they say something will fit in my vehicle, it does.

However, they are generally not the most inexpensive source, either.  I just popped over to their website, and the capacitors they offer seem pretty pricey.   Yeah, a $200 capacitor will solve the problem, but yikes!

I am thinking you can impliment the capacitor fix for well below $50, and maybe less than half that.  I would expect that a 1 Farad cap would handle your water pump voltage dip if you only experience it when the pump starts (not while it runs continuously).

Maybe one of our electronics gurus can suggest an inexpensive capacitor to buy from an electronics parts place (DigiKey, etc) that could be used.  I'm betting that just putting it in car stereo packaging triples the price. 

[belfert]

I use the Flojet Sensor VSD.  A big reason is because it will handle anything from 12 to 24 volt.  My house wiring is 24 volt.  

I know Tom doesn't like the electronics, but I found a spare pretty cheap so I keep one in the bus.  The plumbing connections at the pump are quick connect so no big deal to change the pump if necessary.

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Hi Chaz,

Your Vanner's 12v post is rated for 50amps. It is very possible that you are exceeding that when the pump starts up.. Especially

if you have other loads like lights and your stereo all on at the same time.

Which pump are you running?

I have 2- Sureflo 5.7 gpm smart sensor pumps on board. The second is only for back-up cause the first pump is that powerful.

Nick-

[belfert]

A Vanner can run 12 volt loads directly or it can equalize a pair of 12 volt batteries.  If wired for equalization, any extra load should come directly from the batteries.  The Vanner will qualize the batteries when the load falls below the capacity of the Vanner.

[Len Silva]

I used two older style Surflo pumps in parallel.  I replaced both pressure switches with well pump switches and adjusted them so one was set a little lower the other. That way, only one would run for small demands, and if it couldn't keep up, the second would kick in.  I had them set up with quick electrical connectors and every six months or so, I would swap the connections so that it wasn't the same primary pump all the time.  You could use a SPDT switch to accomplish the same thing.

[Sean]

I, too, use the 12/24-volt Sensor VSD pump (4.3gpm).  I prefer to run large loads such as pumps on the 24-volt system directly, to minimize the load on the equalizer.

BTW, if your equalizer is set up to equalize (rather than as a straight converter), it should not matter if you exceed the equalizer's 12-volt amperage rating -- in fact, it is designed to do exactly that.  Equalizers are not sized for the maximum 12-volt load, they are sized for the average 12-volt load, usually substantially lower.

I would guess the stereo problem is due to inductive "kick-back" from the motor when it stops.  This is hard to diagnose, because most voltmeters are not responsive enough to detect it.  But if this is the cause, then installing a "snubber" diode in parallel with the pump motor (but reverse-biased) should cure it.  If they are 12-volt pumps, you will need a diode whose reverse-bias is greater than about 16 volts or so.

-Sean
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com

[WEC4104]

Based on Sean's post, I went back to the original thread to look at the exact description of the stereo system problem. There it is plain as day, the problem has right when the pump quits.   I apologize, 'cause I missed that the first pass through. 

The capacitor solution I was suggesting was targeting a voltage dip when the pump was first turned on, which I see is not the problem here.  I used to have a problem with my stereo turning off for a few seconds whenever my house batteries were low and my furnace kicked on, and falsely assumed a similar situation.

Kudos to Sean  "Bag of Information" for catching this 

[steve5B]

   Chaz,

   Fred Hobe, has some real good info on his set up on BUS CONVERSION CENTERAL (site) I believe he has a single house pump

   that delivers house (P.S.I.)and G. P.M. .  Get the chance, check it out!


   Steve 5B....

[Chaz]

Thanx for all the help, gents. My Vanner isn't set up as an equalizer. I guess it maybe should be, but isn't.

I was thinking about buying a 12v batter for my generator (instead of using the pull cord all the time) and tying that in some how. Would that help? Just a thought.

My pump is a Sure Flo 12v, 2.8gpm pump. Seems kinda small now that I hear about you guys pumps. Guess I do need to hook the other one up. Do you think hooking the other one up would have any effect, either way, on my stereo problem? I know electricity is a funny thing! 

I'll check that out, Steve. (Oh by the way, I won't be bringing her up to Indy for the Goodguys run this weekend. Luke could not get me a regulator in time.  )

Hey Sean, I don't want to "fan the fires" as it were but, would you care to officially adopt the handle of "Bag Of Information"??  Or maybe "BOI" You ARE a never knowledgeable kind of guy. And as far as recent "exchanges" go, I always enjoy hearing two knowledgeable people debating over things. (as long as it stays civil) I just kinda like the term BOI as a term of endearment. Just a thought.................

  Thanx again!
    Chaz

[WEC4104]

You ARE a never knowledgeable kind of guy.

Ah,... I think Chaz meant "You are an ever knowledgeable kind of guy".  Funny how when you move the space one character over, it changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

...and yes, the honorary BOI title is bestowed with the utmost respect for his contributions to this board.