Have you seen this about guns in Nat. Parks?

[HighTechRedneck]

By the way, for the history and constitutional buffs, I think that you will find that the country's founders and most colonials did not carry guns normally.  I would think that concealed carry was very rare indeed.  

Given that flintlock muzzle loaders weren't easy to carry concealed, probably right.  But there also doesn't appear that there was any shortage of guns in colonial America.  Based on the realities of the time and the strong independence of the founders, I suspect that if handguns would have been more practical at the time, they would have carried, concealed or openly.

1805 Harpers Ferry Flintlock Pistol

[WEC4104]

Me thinks you have missed the pro gut point entirely.

It is about PROPERLY TRAINED people carrying concealed weapons. I"m not endorsing "anyone" can carry, but I think that if you are a responsible member of society & have shown proficiency in firearms . . . .

BTW, when I was in college, the ones prone to drinking wouldn't dare waste any $$ on something you couldn't drink & the ones with hormones raging wouldn't dare waste any $$ on something you couldn't ****.   

This runs contrary to my own personal experience. While in school, I had friends who were into guns on many different levels. Some guys were from rural parts of western Virginia and hunting was second nature to them. One guy with a particular interest in hand guns went on to a career with the FBI.  One guy was purely a collector, and I never heard of him ever firing anything he owned.  Let me assure you, none of them viewed the cost of gun ownership as having an impact on drinking or extra-curricular activities.   (I'll spare you the colorful stories until another day.)

The PROPERLY TRAINED sounds good on paper, but I maintain serious doubts about how feasible this truely is.  In college, just about everybody I knew was a licensed driver.   Most had attended formal driver training programs, which included classroom instruction as well as behind-the-wheel training from a certified teacher. This was supplemented by additional one-on-one instruction, often by a parent or legal guardian.  There was a mandatory waiting period from the time you started driving, until you could obtain a full driver's license. They were required to pass a written safety exam, and demonstrate proficiency at a state run testing facility. By every measure I can think of, these folks were PROPERLY TRAINED. Nevertheless, the bonehead things I saw some folks do would raise the hair on the back of your neck. Trained or not, poor judgement was frequently exercised. coupled with a healthy dose of sheer stupidity. I witnessed close calls, accidents, and people getting injured.

No, of course I am not saying pull the kids and their cars off the road.  The need for personal transportation requires that we assume some of the risks of having young drivers. But as far as this same population carrying concealed hand guns in the classroom, you have a long way to go to convince me that their right to personal protection outweighs the inherent risks to the public.  

Yesterday's news carried a story from a college campus in Phoenix.  A student had been having run-ins with another guy on campus. He pulled out his gun and shot him.  Two bystanders were also hit, and are in the hospital.   Of course somebody is going to say: "If one of the bystanders had a gun of their own, maybe they could have shot back."  Yep, that's the solution: More guns!  Stop the insanity.

[Lin]

I would like to point out that I am the only one trying to keep this topic bus-related. 

[buddydawg]

you have a long way to go to convince me that their right to personal protection outweighs the inherent risks to the public

http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/224858

http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=b619dc9c-6734-4215-8eb0-74aed1b316e5

http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=60425&provider=rss

Here are three news items from this month, there are many of similar events that happen daily but do not make the news.  Explain your personal protection logic to them.  Me, I'll stick with carrying my pistol wherever I go. Especially in my BUS travels.

[WEC4104]

I would like to point out that I am the only one trying to keep this topic bus-related. 

Absolutely right!  But at least I did mention my GMC4104 and it's recent trip to Virginia Tech in one post!

Finally, let me say that I do respect the points made from the other perspective. The fact that we were each able to make our points for both views without it getting ugly or personal is a testimony to the character of the folks here.   My apologies to those who tolerated our OT ramblings.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming ......

[Lin]

Really this is an off topic, off topic post.  It started about the possible change of regulations in the National Parks which, in some ways could even be on topic in our often nomadic community.  That is a much easier example to deal with than gun control in general with its vast amount of nuances. 

[Dallas]

I was planning on not making a second reply on this thread,
It is too emotional for most people that either approve of personal protection or don't.

However, I have been in Ohio for the last 4 1/2 months, in that time I have seen news stories of "unruly" drunks being tazered to death by the police.. one was hit over 21 times, the investigation found the officers not at fault. In my mind, "investigation" by the same authorities that caused the problem in the first place is like having the coyote count the chickens in the hen house.

In the last 4 and 1/2 months, there is not a day that goes by without news on either the Dayton or the Cincinnati TV channels that doesn't list at least 2 and normally 4 or more shootings. ( a side point: both cities are claiming at least a 30% reduction in shootings in the last 12 months.).

I was brought up to believe in the police and their benevolence toward the public. I have even been a police officer and tried to live up to the standard I was taught. But I have also been slammed against the side of my car... after giving the officer my License, Registration and Insurance.. I was told at the time, "You look like someone I need to search".
What happened to probable cause?

I was also pulled out of my OTR semi 3 times, because I would not unlock my door and allow the officer to see if I had a seatbelt on.

I was also given a speeding ticket for 57mph in a 55 zone... in Ohio in the late 1980's. I don't dispute the ticket or the reason given... truck speedometers are set to a particular size of tire, I may have been going 57, who knows? What pisssssssssed me off was the ability of the officer to call in the drug dogs and search my truck for "probable Cause" Moooo Poopy.
All of this was while I sat in handcuffs in the back of a police car.

Yesterday's news carried a story from a college campus in Phoenix.  A student had been having run-ins with another guy on campus. He pulled out his gun and shot him.  Two bystanders were also hit, and are in the hospital.   Of course somebody is going to say: "If one of the bystanders had a gun of their own, maybe they could have shot back."  Yep, that's the solution: More guns!  Stop the insanity.

I don't think the correct statement should be "If one of the bystanders had a gun of their own, maybe they could have shot back."  Yep, that's the solution: More guns!  Stop the insanity." It should focus more on the idiot that had no business in the first place owning a gun, or a slingshot or even a feather duster.
Obviously, this guy didn't have the first inkling of what the term "Gun Control" actually means.
The humorous answer to what gun control means is 12 rounds in a 1 1/2" circle at 30 meters.
the more real to life answer is knowing when deadly force is called for and using it efficiently. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to hit a bystander. I believe that if the guy that fired the gun had been trained, CORRECTLY, this wouldn't have happened.

I am a bit different,
I believe that each person is in charge of their own protection and survival, if they are not capable of that, natural selection will do the job one way or the other. There is nothing in the bill of human rights that says you have a right to be stupid, only that you have a right to compete with others of your species.

Sure, I would be royally pisssed if my son or daughter were to be killed by a random drive by, or eaten by a bear, or run over by a bus, or, or, or, or, or....

If you aren't smart enough to survive, you shouldn't survive. This has nothing to do with population density, it has to do the ability to survive. It has been shown that cultures that allow or require citizens to carry and use personal protection also have much more polite society. If you know that you could be called out for a duel due to your words, maybe you would think twice before using those words. When was the last time you made a hateful statement to the bank teller or the convenience store clerk or the guy down at the car wash.......would you make that same statement if you knew they were armed and willing to call you out on it?

On to Skip's post about bears, I have to agree,
I was a contractor in Yellowstone and in Teton National Park.
My job was to remove "Hazard" tree's so that campers would be safe from trees falling due to high wind or rot.
In the 2 years that I did that contract, I had to shoot four bears, (Hayden Valley), 1 was a Grizzley, who really looked like she was attacking the tree rather than me, at that time they didn't bother testing for rabies, Tuleremia or anything else, 3 bears were Browns who just had a bad attitude. I guess I looked tasty, dunno why, my wife tells me all the time that I'm a dredge on society.
My weapon of choice was a MK IV Ruger target pistol until it was broken, then I used a H&R .22 LR revolver... The point here is that I learned to hit what I was aiming at.
a .22 has taken more deer than any other caliber in the world. No matter what kind or caliber of gun you have, if you don't know how to use it, it's gonna be dangerous. Owning something as powerful and life altering as a gun can be requires that you have some basic training.
I got my learning in the beautiful forests of South Vietnam, I had previous schooling learning to hit what I aimed at... my step dad bought me a Sears single shot .22LR and that is what I killed my first deer and Elk with. There is a moment after you fire the weapon and you watch the live target go down, kicking, screaming and bellowing.. You understand about death.

Me, I live with some of the things I've done, some others I have dreams about.

Dallas

[kyle4501]

PROPERLY TRAINED means just what it says.
It is a sad thing when some think a bureaucratic gauntlet of paperwork is an acceptable substitute for proper training. 
Also, suitable & appropriate consequences should await those who violate the intent of self preservation in an effort to conquer others for the purpose of pillaging.

As this pertains to buses,
I think we (including bus owners) should have a choice as to what we have at our disposal as a suitable means to protect ourselves.
The most effective tool being our brain & using it to avoid ending up in a position where more protection is required. But, being a good Boy Scout, I do like being prepared for the unexpected. 

I also think there should at least be a proof of knowledge test before ANYONE is allowed to drive something 8' wide, 10'+ tall, & 30'+ long .  .  .  .



But, then there is no cure for stupid.  .  .  .   

[HighTechRedneck]

There is a moment after you fire the weapon and you watch the live target go down, kicking, screaming and bellowing.. You understand about death.

Indeed, one of the most profound truths ever printed.  A moment that those who have experienced it don't often talk about and those that haven't don't really know about.

[JohnEd]

Dallas,

Great post...really

KT,

I am with you on that.  I do most certainly fear the police are a potentially greater threat.  Additionally, having many friends that are cops and other types of law enforcement.....I would risk it all to come to their aid.  Mostly, it isn't the ones I know or have known that give me great pause....mostly.

Thanks top all for enlightening and enlivening posts,

John

[Barn Owl]

Thanks jjrbus,

I LMAO!

[Barn Owl]

I did once however see a cop who, while warning a classroom of elementary school kids about gun safety, discharge his weapon by accident.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

[jjrbus]

I wonder how many people who are anti gun, have been the victim of violent crime? Not the, my cousin was killed by a randomly fired bullet or my brother was killed by a criminal with a gun.  But personally been the victim?