What can WE do about oil prices? Possibly OT

[Ncbob]

First, lest we interpret this as a political topic....let's all take a deep breath and consider that we're all in the same boat and it is NOT flying the flag of EITHER Political party!

Had former President Clinton not closed ANWR to oil exploration 14 years ago we would not be in the fix we're in now. Not slamming Clinton...it's a fact and it's done!

We have to deal with today and tomorrow and the future of our children, grandchildren and our Nation. I cannot see any other short term solution other than to lift the ban on ANWR and drilling between 50 and 200 miles off both Coasts in addition to fast tracking the development of alternative sources of energy which will take longer than it will to bring domestic oil and natural gas to the marketplace.

The majority of Americans feel very closely to what I've expressed here.  If we don't let the jugheads in the Congress know what we're thinking during an Election year do you really think they'll ever wish to hear what we have to say? Putting off decisions until tomorrow is a favorite maneuver of both parties. Will putting if off solve anything?

Contact your elected Representative and voice your opinion to him or her. Either way...but DO IT!

GIT 'ER DONE!

Bob

[NJT5047]

I agree Bob.  I won't get into politics either...but the environmentalists and their favorite pol party have finally got what they've wanted for years...high fuel prices.  However, they didn't plan for fuel prices to spike at election time.  Now they're running away from their $4 buck a gallon platform??  Weenies!  I suggest the Dems liberals stand their ground!   
What the environmentals really wanted was $1.00 a gallon fuel with $3.00 of taxes tacked on. Didn't work out that way at all.  Too bad.   
I'm a Gingrich fan...'drill here, drill now'...I know the concept has limits, but drilling will cushion the sudden (catastrophic) loss of affordable energy. 
Technology (and a little luck) will save our butts...eventually.
The 'perfect storm' that has brought riches to China and their recently oil hungry economy, is winding down--rapidly.  The culprit is high energy costs. 
Shipping from Asia was cheap until recently, but the transport costs are wiping out low cost manufacturing savings.   This new expense, coupled with the crap and corruption that is typical of dealing with China is bringing jobs back to our hemisphere...and it may, eventually,  save the world some energy.  Maybe. 
Mexico doesn't do high-tech, so some mid-tech and high-tech manufacturing jobs are coming home.  Cool.
China and India (and us) are primary reasons for high oil prices.  The devalued dollar and commodities speculation are secondary issues.  Negatives in China are good for us.
Inflation in China is also damaging their ability to produce goods cheaply.  They are bleeding jobs.  The Chinese are subsidizing oil, and limiting (trying to) exports of oil and coal.   Oil refiners were illegally exporting petroleum because they couldn't sell it for what it cost.  That's going to change. 
Who knows...maybe something good will come out of all this pump-pain!   
I hope that our buses don't become targets of the few remaining environmentalists.  We could fall from favor, and be considered wastrels!  Though we use much less fuel than pleasure boats, and about the same as most class A RVs, we stand out. 
The marine and RV industry has taken a hit due to fuel prices! 
Happy to say that my business is pretty good...motorcycles are selling!  I'm wondering if Honda is still pleased after puliing all of their motorcycle manufacturing from the US?  Maybe not? 
If fuel prices don't come down, the US is going to be 'bleeding jobs' too.  High fuel cost is a serious threat to our well-being.

Cheers, JR

Bob, are you and Jackie going to Kyle's October Palmetto Cove Non-Rally?  We cannot make the July gig, but planning for the October rally. 

[Jerry Liebler]

Bob,
    If as you suggested Clinton had not closed ANWAR and it had been leased it could have joined the 680.000 acres that have been leased to oil companies but haven't been drilled, they are waiting for higher prices.  Or it could have been fully developed and it would, maybe, have delayed today's prices by a few months, it is just not that big according to T Boone Pickens's testimony today.  The real problem is much worse than any of us wants to believe.  For a real scare read  www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120

[Brassman]

You know, looking at the previous post's link I think it's time to hoard some diesel (albeit after the price decline). The stuff is going to be worth more than gold--as long as the EPA doesn't search for ones underground reservoir.

[NJT5047]

I dunno.  I don't think it's as bad as it seems.   How many people have noticed that Honda auto is scattering fuel cell powered vehicles around in California?   Teknologie is gonna save us...maybe not us bus owners, but we'll have a source of energy. 
$4 a gallon fuel makes the search for alternative sources a sound business opportunity.   
JR

[jjrbus]

I'm on the fence on this. I do not know if I am in denile or looking at things rationaly.  Jerry mentioned the 680,000 acres that are leased but not drilled.  Why are they after all that other land? (Anwar and offshor) Is it becuse thay want to cherry pick? Grab all the easy stuff, buy the leases now while they can get them cheap, take the money and run?
The oil researves are lower than expected, so the price goes up. Ahh, who controls the oil reserves? Might it be the big oil co's?  Why are we subsidizing fuel in Euorpe (type splash and dash in your search bar) Why are we shipping 70,000 gallons of subsidized bio diesel to Euorpe everyday? There is no market for it here. Why are we not expoiting the Bakken formation? The Canadians are doing it very succesfully! Why would'nt Bush stop filling the reserve? I mean they are putting oil in the ground, I thought we have lots of oil in the ground? The Cafe standard is to be 35 MPG by the year 2020 (full of loopholes)  Japan and Euorpe already meet this!!!
I want fo be with NJT, Couple rough years, things will change alot. Then technology/alternate energy will change the peak oil theroy.
In the meantime, Bob is right, keep it non political, do some research, there are lots of conflicting reports. Write your reps (dont email, write) and tell them you will vote for the other party if they dont get off thier butts and do something.
Thanks for letting me ramble.   Jim

[Jerry Liebler]

Jim,
    Yesterday I watched CSPAN's coverage of senate hearings on electrical transmission infrastructure needs.  They featured legendary oil man T Boone Pickens advocating what may be a practical way to avoid the disaster we are facing.  He kept harping on the fact that we in the US are exporting over 700 billion dollars a year to obtain the 70% of oil we must import.  He said among many other things, that he believes in "peak oil" and the world is at the peak.  His solution is harness wind energy and solar energy to generate electricity and free up the natural gas for use as a transportation fuel.  He also dismissed as totally inadequate the entire concept of 'drilling our way out of the problem'.  If technology is to save our 'standard of living' we'll have to  use it, the technology.  Using the technology will mean significant changes, like what Mr. Pickens is working on.  Let's quit blaming the physical fact that we are running out of oil on environmentalists and make the transition to  a renewable energy supply.  It will be a daunting challenge and we'll need oil to do it so we better get to it before the oil is too far gone.  This should not be political at all, all our very survival is seriously threatened.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 

[ktmossman]

It is very hard to know all of the facts in this scenario because everyone providing the data has an agenda.  But there are a few things that appear to be pretty clear:

• Our dependence on foreign oil has proven extremely painful, both geo-politically and financially.
• Because we cannot produce enough oil to be self-sustaining for any significant length of time, we must pursue alternative forms of energy as a long-term (15 + years) solution.
• We have available resources to alleviate (to some extent) the problem in the mid-term (5 - 10 years).  There are unexplored/untapped reserves and companies willing to build new refineries.
• Short-term (1 - 5 years) solutions are much harder to define but would generally be limited to things that Congress would have control over (taxes, incentives, trade policy, etc.)

In my opinion, someone has to put forward a comprehensive plan that includes the whole picture instead of trying to demagogue a particular point for a given constituency (which is what is happening now.)

1. Long-term - Offer real incentives and investment for PROVEN solutions.  Stop penalizing inventive people for developing solutions (fining people who use WVO because they didn't pay fuel tax, etc.)  Stop dumping good money into solutions that are clearly not viable (like biodiesel, which the govt is subsidizing at an insane level just to get it close to affordable and, even though it barely touches the demand, is already causing food shortages.)  How about something like the X-Prize to generate solutions - $10 million to the first person/group who can demonstrate a viable/affordable-to-the-everyday-joe alternative fuel/engine system for transportation?

2. Mid-term - Go after every available natural resource.  If you really think there are environmental risks, make the oil companies put up a bond to correct it if they cause a problem (like they do in other countries).  Tell the environmentalists to put up or shut-up - put a viable alternative on the table (that private industry is willing to fund) or shut the he** up and get out of the way.  Eliminate the NIMBY game.  This is a national issue and everyone should be part of the solution. 

3. Short-term - Congress needs to get their hands out of the cookie jar.  Eliminate taxes from every layer of the fuel exploration, recovery, refining, distribution, etc. process.  When the citizenry is paying through the nose, no congressperson should be able to stand there with a straight face and express their deep concern while they are looting the system.  They can pay for it by not funding the Hog Farming Hall of Fame and other such nonsense.  They always seem to be able to come up with the money for their pet projects, so I'm sure they can cover this loss of tax revenue.

4. Short/mid-term - Get tough with the oil companies.  If they aren't pumping and delivering into the market the maximum capacity available to them, we will sell their lease to someone else who will.

5. Short/mid-term - Get tough with OPEC.  Announce #2 and #4 above and, on top of it, tell all of our foreign sources that, starting next year, we will cap imported petroleum to no more than x% of their OUTPUT.  This % will decrease by a set % every two years for (at least) the next 20 years.  If they want to sell us more petroleum, they will have to put more petroleum into the global market, which will keep the price down.

6. Short/mid-term - End speculation on petroleum.  Anyone buying oil must take physical possession of the product and process (refine) it in some manner.

7. Short/mid-term - Get tough on the auto manufacturers.  Announce that, starting next year, we will allow the importation (without penalty) of any engine that exceeds by x% the average MPG of the best of the similarly sized engines produced here.  If the best 3 - 4 liter engines in a given year average 27 mpg, any foreign-made engine that beats that number by x% can be imported.

Just a couple thoughts from my addled brain...

[NJT5047]

Our fuel shortage has other resolutions.  Coal gasification is quite suitable for making very clean diesel and jet fuel.  Only problem (what else?) is environmentalists.  Cannot damage mother earth digging up that awful coal.    
Between coal and nuclear power, we could rather rapidly become energy independent.  Coal gasification competes at above $55 dollars a barrel for crude.  Coal gasification requires no new technology, no new fancy distribution system as it could be pumped thru existing systems, and it's quick to put into service.  And best of all, the fuel runs in old buses!   
Keep in mind when suggesting wind power, that the environmentalists are taking positions against wind power.   
Solar power is in no way cost effective. 
As for as ethanol goes, ethanol for fuel is a hoax that is being perpetrated on stupid people.   Only countries without coal and oil would consider burning their food sources for inefficient ethanol production.
The best way to improve our energy supply is to remove the government from the equation.   Pols are the enemy.  Both parties!  I'd much rather take my chances with the greedy oil companies.
I believe that automobile owners are making the big change now.  Even if fuel prices go down, people are snake-bit by fuel costs.   Prepare for the states and fed to start penalizing highly efficient vehicles in an attempt to recoup lost highway revenue.
Y'all have a lovely day!  JR

[HighTechRedneck]

It is very hard to know all of the facts in this scenario because everyone providing the data has an agenda.  But there are a few things that appear to be pretty clear:

• Our dependence on foreign oil has proven extremely painful, both geo-politically and financially.
• Because we cannot produce enough oil to be self-sustaining for any significant length of time, we must pursue alternative forms of energy as a long-term (15 + years) solution.
• We have available resources to alleviate (to some extent) the problem in the mid-term (5 - 10 years).  There are unexplored/untapped reserves and companies willing to build new refineries.
• Short-term (1 - 5 years) solutions are much harder to define but would generally be limited to things that Congress would have control over (taxes, incentives, trade policy, etc.)

In my opinion, someone has to put forward a comprehensive plan that includes the whole picture instead of trying to demagogue a particular point for a given constituency (which is what is happening now.)

1. Long-term - Offer real incentives and investment for PROVEN solutions.  Stop penalizing inventive people for developing solutions (fining people who use WVO because they didn't pay fuel tax, etc.)  Stop dumping good money into solutions that are clearly not viable (like biodiesel, which the govt is subsidizing at an insane level just to get it close to affordable and, even though it barely touches the demand, is already causing food shortages.)  How about something like the X-Prize to generate solutions - $10 million to the first person/group who can demonstrate a viable/affordable-to-the-everyday-joe alternative fuel/engine system for transportation?

2. Mid-term - Go after every available natural resource.  If you really think there are environmental risks, make the oil companies put up a bond to correct it if they cause a problem (like they do in other countries).  Tell the environmentalists to put up or shut-up - put a viable alternative on the table (that private industry is willing to fund) or shut the he** up and get out of the way.  Eliminate the NIMBY game.  This is a national issue and everyone should be part of the solution. 

3. Short-term - Congress needs to get their hands out of the cookie jar.  Eliminate taxes from every layer of the fuel exploration, recovery, refining, distribution, etc. process.  When the citizenry is paying through the nose, no congressperson should be able to stand there with a straight face and express their deep concern while they are looting the system.  They can pay for it by not funding the Hog Farming Hall of Fame and other such nonsense.  They always seem to be able to come up with the money for their pet projects, so I'm sure they can cover this loss of tax revenue.

4. Short/mid-term - Get tough with the oil companies.  If they aren't pumping and delivering into the market the maximum capacity available to them, we will sell their lease to someone else who will.

5. Short/mid-term - Get tough with OPEC.  Announce #2 and #4 above and, on top of it, tell all of our foreign sources that, starting next year, we will cap imported petroleum to no more than x% of their OUTPUT.  This % will decrease by a set % every two years for (at least) the next 20 years.  If they want to sell us more petroleum, they will have to put more petroleum into the global market, which will keep the price down.

6. Short/mid-term - End speculation on petroleum.  Anyone buying oil must take physical possession of the product and process (refine) it in some manner.

7. Short/mid-term - Get tough on the auto manufacturers.  Announce that, starting next year, we will allow the importation (without penalty) of any engine that exceeds by x% the average MPG of the best of the similarly sized engines produced here.  If the best 3 - 4 liter engines in a given year average 27 mpg, any foreign-made engine that beats that number by x% can be imported.

Just a couple thoughts from my addled brain...

Rarely do I see a post in a controversial topic that I agree with every point made.  But I totally agree with every thing you said in this post.  Especially items #4 and 6 in your plan.  I absolutely detest that at this critical time oil companies can acquire oil leases and then just sit on them.

[garhawk]

this subject keeps coming up on a regular basis.

the last two times caused me to make a few comments as to why oil prices are high.

for some reason, my posts were eliminated.

why are my ideas less important than the others?

gary t'berry
rts 102 40er

[HighTechRedneck]

this subject keeps coming up on a regular basis.

the last two times caused me to make a few comments as to why oil prices are high.

for some reason, my posts were eliminated.

why are my ideas less important than the others?

gary t'berry
rts 102 40er

Gary, would these be the one's?

fuel prices

blame for fuel prices

[Jerry Liebler]

Well I watched some house debate today on CSPAN & must correct the earlier number of undrilled oil leases.  It is 68 Million acres and includes a large block that is adjacent to ANWAR.   The idea of use it or loose it  on these oil leases seems to have some political appeal, to democrats, but it is clearly opposed by the republicans and the Pres has said it'll be vetoed.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 

[Ncbob]

Jerry, the idea of "use it or lose it" was not a debated idea but proposed by the leader of the IL (Dem) Caucus. In an attempt to keep this thread "apolitical" I'm going to suggest that if you have a political point, as you and I have been doing, put them in a PM to the individual in question and have a personal debate.

The Moderators have been more than patient with this thread and for that I thank them. I knew that dangerous ground upon which I was walking but asked each of you to keep it to topic without extraneous comment. Most have done that....and don't think I haven't been tempted...but PLEASE, let's stay on topic.

Bob

[Dallas]

this subject keeps coming up on a regular basis.

the last two times caused me to make a few comments as to why oil prices are high.

for some reason, my posts were eliminated.

why are my ideas less important than the others?

gary t'berry
rts 102 40er

We, as moderators do not delete posts out of hand.

The only time that we will delete a post is if it fails to follow the rules of the board. No other posts have been, are now or will be deleted.

Any post that comes close to being questionable gets moved to the moderators board for review. if the big Kuhuna thinks it's acceptable, we return it to it's spot.

I really hate when people decide we are deleting posts and we aren't.

Dallas