scencruiser on ebay

[tekebird]

nice looking "shell" on ebay right now.

for someone looking to restore one to seated this would probably be a good way to start rather than spending alot of $$ on body etc

buy this and swap interiors from a donor

[kyle4501]

The only one I saw was way, WAY overpriced with an opening bid of $35,000 for what you get.

[tekebird]

not knowing what others have paid for running and safe scenicruiser, or ones that needed to be towed away.

it is a bit overpriced if they really want it gone.....

But at first glance save the wrong frt marker lights, it looks fairly complete and straight.

[kyle4501]

The price of Scenicruisers is like most things - limited by what someone will pay.

If it needs towing - free  up to ~$5000.

If it runs & drives - free  up to what ever (usually under $10,000) - just depends on what the buyer wants & condition of the bus. 


Most buses get maintenance only when needed. Older buses don't usually generate enough revenue to get extensive preventave maintenance. So, for reliability, one needs to plan on a total rebuild of the air system on what ever 40+ year old you buy before returning it to the road. Then some serious consideration needs to be given to the electrical system. Lets not forget the structural repair issues that surface after the other work is under way. Then there is the suspension . . . .


If the bus on ebay doesn't have all this done, it isn't likely to bring that much. It already needs too much obvious work to restore it OR convert it. If you're gonna do all that work, there are much cheaper units out there to start with. As it is, the interior doesn't fit with the exterior, so the allure or draw of riding a classic ends when you step in the door.

There looks to be a big dent above the rear window. So what if it has new paint? It ain't likely to be what someone else wants.


The BIGGEST factor that makes Scenicruiser parts more expensive than other old bus parts is greedy people wanting to rip someone off. 
The filthy rich crowd takes little notice of these classic icons of mass transportation for the 'common people".
Now, if it was a vintage luxury item from the "Robber Baron" days . . . . 
But these are usually the hobbies of the little guy with limited cash resources, so there are few if any deep pockets in the demand crowd.

If someone actually has a 4501 & needs parts, all they need is patience & resourcefulness to get what they need. Of course you can always speed things up by throwing loads of cash at it, but that ain't the only way.
Easiest way to source parts is to network with other 4501 owners & stay away from brokers & middlemen looking to add their markups. 

[jackhartjr]

Kyle...you hit it on the head!
I have spent a lot more money than needed when I did not deal with owners of Scenicruisers!  A LOT MORE!
The parts are not really like gold...if you can wait a little bit!
Come to think of it I have had owners of other buses GIVE me parts!
Even Bus Trader puts a high of $10,000.00 for a running bus.  (Scenicruiser.)
Jack

[tekebird]

being a broker of buses and dealer in parts, asking reasonable prices is not absurd or      unethical.

Buying, gathering and storing old bus parts is not cheap.  Add to it the number of people that call you to see if you have something that they can't find, but they wat it for the 1950's price.

My pricing is based on several factors.

1. the cost of the item from GM's last published price list in 1978
2. The availabilty of the same item from other sources
3. The cost of a similar part from MCI today
4. The condition of the part I have ( If I have a brand new body panel, which nobody has, and it is likely something that either is not available used, or is likely to be boogered up used)
5.  What I would be willing to pay for that part if I  needed/wanted it for my Coach

Some things are just made of unobtanium...... sure you can search the Earth and maybe find one of a used bus, or find someone who has a spare they may  give to you or sell cheap.  You might find reproduction that don;t quite match in one way or another, you might go out and have something made for Money

Some folks will cobb together something and they are all right with that....others want what belongs.....and are willing to pay for it.

My 4104 did not start out perfect but over many decades pretty much every pannel was like new.....and it cost $$, in addition my  4104 parts inventory of all new parts cost money and alot of time......when I sold my 04 for quite a chunk of change, the new owner did not think twice about buying my entire parts inventory which pretty much included every piece of skin from the beltline down brand new as well as new rear windows, all new window seals etc etc.  and did not even attempt to dicker the price.

Now I know some people have limited budgets for thier buses, and that is fine......but one should not expect things to be cheap....It's a bus for gods sake.

Scenicruiser wise, of the 200 or so out there, most have been neglected or hacked up enough that they are well out of the status of a restorable candidate.  Restoring a Coach is an expensive ordeal, in money and time.  Even one that is sound

There are bus restoiration projects going on presently in several locations which started with much worse beginings that the ebay Scenic.  Outside of the dent and non original paint, as a start it looks good ( subject to in person inspection) as photos lie ( both ways).

Most people will not take the time let alone the money to properly restore a coach........I am not talking about slapping some GLI p[aint on it and some 3rd generation seat covers.

With a small group of owners liek Scenicuiser owners less than 200 since some people have real scenic addictions there would obviously be some sharing.......but then there are those who won;t, not even for whatever value they place on something.

As far as national Bus trader......the values listed in there are not realistic values.  They are based solely on prices that model coach brought the last time one was sold through NBT classifieds. 

Someone wanting to  do a real restoration or having a  great desire to have somnething that is rare, will often be more than OK paying a premium.

That said.......chances of those people getting 35k is nill in todays market.

[kyle4501]

being a broker of buses and dealer in parts, asking reasonable prices is not absurd or      unethical.

Some people's definition of reasonable is debateable. 

IF a broker or dealer KNOWS what they are talking about, then some markup is justified. 

The problem I have encountered is that MOST are only guessing when it comes to scenicruisers! Then absurd & unethical apply to them. Those are the ones of which I spoke. 

I know a little about these buses & of the businesses that profess knowledge of Scenicruisers, there are damn few that aren't full of crap & blowing smoke at almost every turn when it comes to information & parts . . . 

Another benefit from a well informed broker would be the known market for having parts reproduced. The problem so far is that when parts are needed to be made (like curved glass) the tooling cost isn't spread over enough parts & any added 'broker' fees only add to the problem which ends up sending the price to stupidville. Now if the broker got off his @$# & found enough buyers to defer the cost. . .  he would have earned a reasonable fee. 

As for what the price is based on, whatever works. . . . or doesn't.
Storage space costs something, so;
the higher the price, the smaller the customer base, the less likely it is to sell, the longer it sits on the shelf, the higher the price, .  .   .    . until no one will buy it, so it goes to scrap for nothing rather than sell it at a reasonable price to start with.

If someone wants a business that caters to those with deep pockets, fine. But, it is in poor taste to cast insults at those who don't have the resources to play at that level.


Some people can't relate to anything except how much something costs in dollars. It is sad that they are missing so much.



As for paying a premium for something rare, that is usually reserved for the occasional part that completes the whole. NOT every singe part on the coach.

YMMV

[Dallas]

Strange as it sounds, I don't check other places for a price on whatever I'm selling.. I post a price, if it isn't acceptable, then it's probably negotiable.

I'm not interested in making a buck off the busnut community, all I want is enough money to fill my tank, fill my belly, and keep up the maintenance.

Granted, I don't do a lot with Scenic parts, but, if I were the one looking, I think I would look at the master parts book.. many of the body and suspension parts were the same for many buses, not just GMC. My Master Parts Book doesn't include the Scenic, but it does include the 4104 and goes all the way back to the 2703... lots of parts are interchangeable between the 1940's version and the 1960's version... It just takes some time to figure out what you are looking at and where you want to go with it.

As an example, my bus came with a 4.56:1 differential... It now has something like a 3.22 or a 2.33 differential... 96 mph top speed, but it won't pull itself over a crushed milk carton from a standing start.

The P.O. thought it would be cool to be able to go that fast... I don't. I do about 62 in third and seldom if ever get into 4th.

Would I change out the differential? you betcha! In a Heartbeat... but someone is gonna pay me to do it... I would be willing to swap, but it seems for my differential, the VH9 transmission would be a lot better swap.

Back to the subject at hand... The going price for anything is all that the traffic will bear, except for idjits like me, that just want to keep on keepin' on!

[tekebird]

I agree with the fact that reproducing stuff is not spread over enough people......but there are groups of owners who can't get together to do this......either nobody wants to be the front man, or not eveyone can come up with the money etc.  It really is an enterprise of getting the entire chunk of change up front.  Trusting people to come up with the money for the part they said they wanted will screw the person fronting the money 90% of the time.  and this is on projects where nobody is making profit.

Sure someone could invest the money for Scenicruiser glass...and maybe 4-5 people might be in the market......and maybe 3 would come up with the money

Fast Fred fronted money for Split window frame rubber for the 04/06/4501......and was left holding the bag on some of it.....which I think ended up with US Coach.

On storage, I am not suggesting you add to the price of an item for storage over the years...but it is something to consider when deciding a price

There are few and far between people who have the forethough or desire to gather and store these things for a dwindling market.  20 years ago the market was pretty good.  Now, GM's are becoming few and far between and alot have gone downhill or been redneck engineered to the point the new owner either does not care, or wants stuff for free because after all it's only an old bus part.

I'd say 80% of the people that contact me for parts never come up with any money.  Likey they just don't have it.

Now as far as restoring, I am NOT talking about a conversion.....the vast ammount of conversion folks are tight or don;t have the money to do things 100% when it comes to a "restoration"

I'm talking about restoring seated coaches to good serviceable condition on up to museum quality restorations.  Yep there are people who do it.  The biginings of the Museum of Bus Transportation 2was all privately restored coaches.......in fact there are probably several hundred pre 1960's buses that are fully restored.

But this covers a wide spectrum of makes and models.  It is not like your 1969 Camaro where there were 10,000 of the things made and there are thousands still alive.  That market is worth while making repro stuff for......and it is not cheap even with the huge market.

I don't agree with the whole bus not bringing a premium.  this can be evidenced by the very nice clean Seated MC-9 on ebay that last I looked was at 15k...with a buy it now of 25k.......my opinion.....in comparison to what 25k gets you ona A3 or C3......the 9 is a better buy and is certainly worth a premium

For someone that WANTS a scenicruiser, sure there are some cheap ones out there, but as I said most are far from straight body wise, alot are missing glass, have been hacked up in the conversion process.  The one on ebay is the closest to a seated coach that is complete and straight that I know of that is for sale and Supposedly runs........thus if someone wants to do a seated coach restoration, that would be the girl in my opinion, providing it passes muster.  What might be spent as a premium on the bus might very well be saved twice or better over during the restoration


Now as far as parts.

What would you put as a value for the followiung new unused OEM/NOS out of curiosity

GM noseplate from 4104
Greyhound noseplate from 4501/4104
above original backlit version with the dog in the oval?
rear 4104 glass set
rear 4501 glass set
4501 Upper D windows
4501 Upper windshields
4501 skylights
Rubber for any of the above glass
4104 Reverse operating T stat?
4104 Tstat Housing
4104 Front Curb side Corner marker
GM Front Bumper with Fog Light holes

[tekebird]

Dallas,

I don't shop around prior to making my prices, but I do use the 78 parts price list and MCI parts price list as a good gauge of things.


By filling your tank, belly and maint $ you are indeed making a buck of the community.... and there is nothing at all wrong with that in my book.

mechanically there is alot that crosses over you can even find the things direct from the manufacturer at a much reduced  price......yep there was a set of vendor parts books when gave the vendor and vendor part # crossovers.  1 issue per year for the coaches.

But body wise there is not alot of crossover......Most of what I do is body, although I do have relays and other mechanical things which came as lots from GM parts room inventories we have obtained.

your right, Price is set by what the market will bear in conjunction with what the seller is willing to sell the item for.

Once I had a good number of 4104 Curb side frt marker lenses....all brand new.......10 years ago they were bringing 250.00 (from me) Nobody else had any, save the waethered bone yard ones.  last one I sold (excluding the one that was with the full set that went with my 4104 sold for 400.00.  Guy didn;t dicker or snivel, and was quite happy to have a nice looking non weathered chiped or cracked lens on his quite nice 4104.

I would have to say if I broke that lens on my 04 I probably would have spent better than 500.00 to get one.  Rear window set on my 04......probably would have gone to more than a couple thousand for a new one.

to put this in perspective.....the Flxible Flxliner windshields were 900.00 each 10 years ago FOB from mexico.  While restoring our Flxliners we purchased several sets.  ONly two sets fit and these were newly or recently produced DINA parts

[kyle4501]

If you want to know what something is worth in the REAL world this week, put it on ebay with no reserve. If there is more than one bidder, you will KNOW what 2 people are willing to pay for it.

There are several values:
1- as a trophy to put on the shelf of a deep pocketed collector
2- as a repair part to keep/put a bus on the road in revenue generating service
3- as a new part for a restoration
4- as a repair part to keep/put a bus on the road for personal, necessity use
5- same but for non necessity use

You cannot equate the needs of #5 to #1 & therefore the differences in price expectations should be expected.



I paid $60 for a back lit oval dog.

As for curved glass, $300= s&h each is a fair & doable price, unless you mismanage the deal, then you're just adding cost.

The problem with sharing the tooling cost for making parts is that everyone is on a different schedule & may not need that particular part yet.
& there is the limited funds issue . . .

Most don't know how to find a manufacturer & if they do, they don't know how to work with them to keep the cost down. That is where so much of the markup comes into the cost - so many middlemen stepping on the price.
Then the fact that most are looking for walmart volume . . . .

The buses restored by private individuals weren't done in a hurry or for proffit. They were done for fun - the thrill of the chase, the new friends met along the way, etc.
They were restored by private individuals because there wasn't enough $$ to buy the parts & pay labor.

The market for GM bus parts has changed drastically in the last 20 years as the bused moved to the private sector. There is a real good reason the old inventory was sold off as a unit lot.

With today's market for GM parts, I'd think that selling them should be looked at as a hobby, not a way to make a living.

But what do I know? I'm not the one who paid over $300 for 2 NOS beehive rear clearance lights for a GM bus.



BTW, it ain't always cheap buyers -
There have been places where I have inquired about parts. Was told "yes, I have them for $$". After seeing pictures & even tho I thought the price was too high, I said OK, when can they ship out? Then the excuses started about it would be a while, bla, bla, bla. . . . . "I'll get back to you tomorrow" . . Then nothing else. I'm not going to beg someone to take my money for an overpriced item. S that seller lost ALL credibility in my opinion & I'll avoid dealing with them.

[tekebird]

I agree there is a spectrum of price expectations.  and I don;t sell to alot of folks because of that.

GM parts were often sold off in lots, more often thrown away, not because they are not worth anything, but a cCharter Operator has better things to do with their time than try to sell old bus parts and until the advent of ebay the process was alot slower.

Ebay is not a fair representation of prices on alot of items, particularly unique items.  not eveyone hunts ebay, and those who do do not hunt it all the time.  For instance a size 15 fishing wader boot on ebay will likely not sell or bring little because how many guys with size 15 feet are hunting ebay.

not understanding this  "They were restored by private individuals because there wasn't enough $$ to buy the parts & pay labor."

I'd say a good percentage of restored vehicles are done professionally ( paid for by private individuals)

Selling GM parts.  Yep can't make a living at it by any means, but you can make money.  As I said ALOT of people out there with nice buses who accidently break a part, get hit, hit something etc, don;t want to run around with a banged up panel or put some stupid looking non OEM marker light on thier bus.

back to ebay......I have purchased GM parts on ebay....only to have a very eager and satisfied customer when they call and I have it.  Yes I make money, sometimes very good money, but if you look at it hourly I probably lose money.  Between getting truckloads of parts, going through and culling the crap out, ID'ing, inventorying, transporting to the storage facility, unloading in a logical fashion, and then going to fetch parts when people call for them, the time it takes to pack/make crates etc.  Your right it is a hobby

300 bucks for rear michigan marker lenses....yep that guy got boned......they are not all that rare and almost never got broken when they were on a bus......only conversion guys who back them int trees need them

as for your experience whith whoever it was.....I'd avoid them after that too.  in fact I avoid several businesses after bad experiences.

again, I think people should expect to pay big toy prices for parts, or spend the time calling around to every podunk boneyard looking for themselves, then waiting for those guys to pull it and ship it, and maybe end up with a pile of crap.  I have quoted prices on parts which were lower than a VERY similar part on a new car and had people bitch about the price. 

Maybe I should have asked you to put a price on those parts and not a value.  to some they are worth scrap value, however I have scrapped a bunch of low demand parts....only to have guys come along.....Sorry I gust scrapped that stuff last week.......Damn, I would have paid an arm and a leg for that.

[tekebird]

Back to Scenicruisers.

To those that have them I will be getting Step flooring made, Cabin flooring and most likely Skylights.

If anyone is interested in getting some of this stuff contact me directly.

I will not be making any extra ( not my money) and anyone who can buck up up front will be able to save with economy of scale.  Don;t buck up you don;t get any product

[kyle4501]

Back to Scenicruisers.

To those that have them I will be getting Step flooring made, Cabin flooring and most likely Skylights.

If anyone is interested in getting some of this stuff contact me directly.

I will not be making any extra ( not my money) and anyone who can buck up up front will be able to save with economy of scale.  Don;t buck up you don;t get any product

I'm surprised at your attitude about not getting extra for stock. . . when you'll buy truckloads of stuff & spend all that time trying to identify it . . .

I guess we each have very different ways of enjoying our version of this hobby. 

[RJ]

Whats the eBay item number?