bus not level when air up

DrivingMissLazy · April 22, 2008, 07:02:38 PM

Quote from: PP on April 22, 2008, 06:45:48 PM
Quote "I agree with everything you have said except I think the tag axle should be repaired first. If it is down on the passenger side and up on the driver side, that could cause the bus to tilt toward the driver."
"Richard" Unquote

Thanks Richard, but wouldn't it lean even before he aired it up if it was a seized tag axle causing the lean?

I am under the impression that one side of the tag axle is stuck in the up position, therefore not carrying its share of the weight on that side and causing the coach to tilt in that direction. It will be interesting to find out what the problem really is.

Richard

Richard

PP · April 22, 2008, 07:17:08 PM

Quote"When sitting in my driver way, aired up from my compressor, the curb sides airs up enough to left the tag off the ground 3"-4". Drivers side tag is still barely touching the ground"unquote

Richard
After re-reading Bowmaga's statement, it sounds like the curbside, which is airing up properly, is lifting the tag up off the ground, while on the low side the tag is just barely touching the ground. I don't think (

) the tag is having any effect on the leaning situation. In fact, I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that it's the leveling linkage. But like you, I'm dying of curiosity to hear what the end result is.

Will

DrivingMissLazy · April 22, 2008, 07:21:17 PM

Quote from: PP on April 22, 2008, 07:17:08 PM
Quote"When sitting in my driver way, aired up from my compressor, the curb sides airs up enough to left the tag off the ground 3"-4". Drivers side tag is still barely touching the ground"unquote

Richard
After re-reading Bowmaga's statement, it sounds like the curbside, which is airing up properly, is lifting the tag up off the ground, while on the low side the tag is just barely touching the ground. I don't think ( ) the tag is having any effect on the leaning situation. In fact, I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that it's the leveling linkage. But like you, I'm dying of curiosity to hear what the end result is. Will

One thing for sure, I never had that problem with my Eagle. LOL

Richard

NJT5047 · April 22, 2008, 07:29:34 PM

Quote from: PP on April 22, 2008, 06:45:48 PM
Quote "I agree with everything you have said except I think the tag axle should be repaired first. If it is down on the passenger side and up on the driver side, that could cause the bus to tilt toward the driver."
"Richard" Unquote

Thanks Richard, but wouldn't it lean even before he aired it up if it was a seized tag axle causing the lean?

I agree with everyone...however, I'd repair the tags first because that could be a showstopper. The hanging tag, and it is stuck big-time if it won't stay on the ground when the drive is aired up, will be much more difficult repair. The repair may require replacement of the tag axle assembly.
The leaning is going to be easy to repair. The fact that it's been kicked around so much is not related to the minor issue it presents.
Repairing the tags could be major (as in $$$) work. Very likely it will be. Even if they are worked loose, they may have so much play and damage to the bearings as to induce "tag-steer" from the rear.
The only reason to attack the leveling first would be to enable moving the bus.
I would suspect air beams...even with rusted air-beams, the pressure will only drop to about 60 lbs and then the accessories are shut off. The bus may sit with the remainder of air for days.
The things that shut down are the air suspension, wipers, AC and blower belt tensioners...etc. The brake system may remain aired for several days. This doesn't indicate that the air suspension isn't leaking. The only way to check for leaks that are not audible is to isolate the problem system and apply air to it. It'll become quickly obvious what leaks. Air beams are notorious for leaking, but no audible sign of leaking is presented. Air bags will also seep quietly. However, they can be soaked with children's bubble solution and the leaks become apparent. Air bags don't often lead so bad as to prevent leveling. Air beams can, and so can leveling valves.
If the lines must be removed from the leveling valves, the leveling valves should be replaced. They are cheap.
The adjustment is nothing more than adjusting the arms to set the bus chassis to a specified dimension between the drive axle and the chassis on each side. If the arm is moved, the bus will move. It's easy to adjust if you're in a pit. The bus must be aired up and should be sitting on its wheels. Do not level to the ground...level to the drive axle.
The drive axle air beams are not tied together...the front air beams are tied together. The front uses one leveling valve. The drive axle uses two, one for each side which handles all side-to-side leveling. As Jack Conrad accurately discribed, the tags are set for 35 lbs (should be), and are only weight bearing. Tags don't effect leveling. Unless they are stuck down...then they could hold the bus up.
They'll usually lift off the ground when stuck...which is a bad situation.
You might want to start looking for a donor MC9 tag axle assembly. Definitely want a used assembly that is in known good condition. Just cut the old tag tube in half and drag the whole assembly out.
Don't mean to paint a bleak picture, but this tag thing is a problem. Makes one wonder how much grease the service brakes, steering, and other lube points may have received?
Good luck, JR

SuperBettyBus · April 23, 2008, 01:54:52 AM

Greg -- I hope you're still alive and haven't "thrown yourself under the bus." You sound like you're sitting in the bus bathroom talking to a shot-gun! lol

We have a lot of work to do on Betty this weekend. Let's just hope I still have (2) arms, (2) legs and my man parts after crawling under the bus with 24-tons of bottle jacks. I've read everyone's "warnings" and I take them all EXTREMELY seriously.

Let's just hope there is some good bus news to share Sunday morning.

Dan A.

bowmaga · April 23, 2008, 08:43:21 AM

Everyone, that last respone is owner #2 of 4 owners on super Betty. He's the driver, engine maintenance, and electrical mastermind of the bus. Unfortunately we've never needed a suspension department in our previous little bus world so myself and Danny are going to see if we can learn the hard way. This weekend we are going to work on the tags in my driveway, grease them up, and work them slowly up and down until they move on their own. I've read where guys have done this and it has worked. Hopefully for us it will to. And to answer speculations to everyones thoughts from my ramblings. The tags are stuck up for sure...both sides. As for the drive axles bags. The curbs sides airs up real good, but the drivers side only airs up a little, hence giving the girl a low rear right side corner, keeping that side tag closer to the ground than the curb side tag...when aired up. I have 6x6 blocking, 2x12's, and others misc 2x's for blocking along with some new 12 ton bottle jacks. We'll see what we can get done this Saturday, for our first monster bus weekend with super Betty. you boys better have your computers on. I'll either have questions, bad news or good news to tell. I'm sure all 3, along with more wtf are these pictures....which I see has gotten very far off course!

JackConrad · April 23, 2008, 04:34:59 PM

After you grease the tag axles (2 zerks on the center cross over tube on each side and 1 zerks on each half the the clamp ring on each side), drive the bus so the tag axles ride over a small curb or several stacked 2Xs to work the axle up & down (and hopefully free it up). Jack

NJT5047 · April 23, 2008, 07:55:39 PM

May I recommend a major-mojo powered grease gun. Something that will really force grease where none has been for a long time! A hand gun may work, but if it doesn't, there are othe options.
Do you have any sort of anchor point in the ground to which you could chain the tag axle arm near the spindle while the bus is deflated? Then air up the bus. That'll put several tons of 'effort' into moving the tags. Those airbags create a lot of force. The tag bags don't, but the drive axle does. Using the air suspension for movement would be a sight easier than jacking with bottle jacks. The bottle jack handles are going to need a good 'extension' such as a piece of pipe about 3' long.
Your list of supplies looks pretty good....but something's missing. How you gonna get bus work done without suitable adult beverages? Back to the store!

Where are you and your bus located?
Hope you get that sucker free'ed up. Still, as long as you have good help, the problem can be resolved.
Ya'll's be careful when working under that bus!
JR

buswarrior · April 23, 2008, 08:43:37 PM

Hello.

You know me, looking for the simple stuff...

The tag axles aren't chained up, are they?

Otherwise, carry on with the scheduled programming!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

bowmaga · April 24, 2008, 04:23:09 AM

The bus and myself are located in Archbold, Ohio. Very Northwest Ohio, in Fulton county. I grew up in Williams county which is in the corner of the state. The other 3 owners are city kids from Toledo. If anyone wants to work on a bus, you are more than welcome to show up.

Not really any good way of anchoring them to the my concrete drive. I couldn't do anything tough enough at this point. Just going to have to take some man handling it.

Nope, bus isn't chained up, when I first learned that could be the probelm, I hoped and prayed thats what is was....but nope. no chains....just stuck

NJT5047 · April 24, 2008, 07:59:48 PM

Hmmmm...that's a pretty good jaunt from Charlotte. Sounds like you have good help anyway!
For a chain point you could get a big ole steel beam...drive the drive axle up on one end, and park mama's car on the other?

As long as she's not looking!
Then you got something to chain the tag to. Tighten the chain and air up the drive air bags.
Another idea...do you have access to an industrial strength Port-0-Power? The advantage of a Port-o-Power is that you can get back from the 'process' in the event something really gives...or breaks off...or slips and flies out.
Post pix of what ya'll do. And be careful!
JR

bowmaga · April 25, 2008, 06:31:15 PM

OK boys, 9:15 on Friday night....and what have I been doing the past 3 hours....trying to figure out my bus. I aired it up, backed it out onto the road, moved it around, back it back in to the spot in front of the garage to begin her make over....and she's still leaning to the left. Right side...airs up good. Driver side....not so much. I contacted the previous owner who finally talked to me, and I was wrong about the recently replaced air bag location....its in the front drivers side. The tag curbside rear was replace a while ago, while it was owned by a prior limo company. Anyway...I got to looking....and thinking....and drinking. I got out a bottle jack and some blocks and thought i would try to lift the driver side body to shift the weight back over center so she didn't lean. I placed a block under the back corner of the cargo compartment, in front of the drivers drive tire. Started to lift slowly....and that's when i heard the hisssssssssssssssssssss. I think the drive axle air bags on the driver side are not airing up as i thought they were...at least getting a little air, i think they are leaking. I don't know..would doing what i did, take pressure off the bag allowing them to show their leak? You know, compressed they wouldn't as much as uncompressed by my lift the body? Any way, what will it take to replace the two bags on the drive axle? what would it cost? can i do it? has anyone else done it? The depression is slowly setting back in....i think i need another case of beer. The other guys show up tomorrow morning...i haven't told them about my undesirable findings yet. They'll be super happy.

NJT5047 · April 25, 2008, 07:08:24 PM

You can replace air bags. No fun, but it's doable. Don't do anything until you soap up the bags and establish what's leaking. I've replaced both drive and steer on my MC9.
Get ready to bend some wrenches for access to difficult nuts.
If your drive axle airbags are leaking, I'd recommend going ahead with a block-off kit and do both sides. And new leveling valves on both sides.
Another point...jacking on the body is a no-no. You'll cave in some expensive metal...if that's really what you are jacking on...? Look on the front of the vertical steel post located in front of the drive axle....there's a small plate that sticks out on the front of the post. That's the jack point for the rear of the bus.
Cheers, JR

bowmaga · April 25, 2008, 07:17:48 PM

can i ask roughly what all that replacing set you back? Just to give me more reasons to drink? And everythink seems impossible to work on from my concrete drive way.....you just can't get under this thing. Even if i backed up on my ramps i have constructed, that's only 8" more. I know that jacking on the body is a no no, but i wanted to level the body not left the axle. There has to be some place you should be able to level the body with a jack. And i sit here and ask myself once again....wtf was I thinking.

Tony LEE · April 26, 2008, 07:33:20 AM

If you lifted the body (and you shouldn't really do it like that) and air started hissing out just inboard of that wheel, it means that the height control valve detected that the body was high and let air out of the bag on that corner to try and get the height correct.

Two possibilities - either that side height valve actuating rod has been bent or adjusted wrongly to lower the set height on that side OR the other side height valve has failed open and is pumping the bags up to full height.

You would need to check the ride heights to determine which one.