Redesigning my Fuel Delivery System

[captain ron]

I'm converting to run on WVO and I'm running into headaches with the way the fuel is delivered/filtered.

Right now the fuel comes from the tank to a primary filter to my pump. Out of my pump through a heat sink on my DDEC to my secondary filter. Then 2 lines come out of my secondary 1 to each head. Then a return comes out of the front of each head and T's into one return to my tank.

This makes it really hard and expensive to put in all the 3 way valves I need.

Can I do all of my diesel filtering BEFORE the pump? If not why?

Can I put a T in front of the 3 way having my 2 lines out of my secondary go into one and the same on the back side of my 3 way?

Then I could put another 3 way after the T on the return line to direct the proper fuel to the proper tank.

I am at this point only running 1 filter on the WVO. It is a Racor 1000 FG heated filter and water separator .

The WVO will be filtered initially through a centrifuge.

[Ncbob]

Ron, I'll be going home in a bit over a week and a half. Notwithstanding the price of corn I know there's some of the good ol' boys who're are running of a few batches now and then. You might think about spiking some of that WVO with some 'good ol' mountain dew'....just so it don't clog up your bus's arteries.

Bob

PS. I'll give Dad a call and stop by just to say 'Hi'.

[tekebird]

answer: Yes you can do all your filtering pre pump

[Chaz]

Charley,
 I'm still in the infant stages of the fuel system also. (just reading basically) I have my cf running and getting stocked up. next is the tank.
 I have talked a little with Chris from Frybrid and if I remember right, he uses a 6 way valve. (I think. Could be wrong.) But personally, I would think that if you cf the oil, which can get it down to .5 microns, another inline filter would just be a more insurance. Unless you use a heated filter. I am contemplating that.
 I'll be interested to see what others think.
   Chaz

[captain ron]

Hi Chaz, I haven't had much luck talking to Chris. He was quite an A$$ with me on his board. I am using 3 way valves and now it looks like I'll only need 2 for my fuel system. I saw pictures of your CF rig and it is nice. I will be taking pictures all along the way and post them as I can.

[RTS/Daytona]

Ron, Charlie , or what ever you are calling yourself today

As much as I agree with Chris' evaluation of your behavior on HIS board and as much as I have had a few "go arounds" with you on the BNO board -

I think you are headed in a wrong direction as far as keeping your DDEC in the heated WVO fuel delivery path. For what it's worth - here's some additional information and what I PLANNED to do with my RTS 6V92TA DDEC-II WVO system. Now remember these ideas are from a GEEK / NERD - you know the type that you poke fun at all the time -

Here's some design data you need to know when planning your fuel delivery system - this info is for a 6v92TA - if your engine is an 8V92 than multiply by 1.33

FUEL SPILL RATE-
(the amount of fuel returned to the tank)
62.3 Gallons per hour at max rpm /  Full Load
54.0 Gallons per hour at 1200 rpm / no load
approx 80-90 percent of the fuel delivered to the fuel rail is returned to the tank
If your getting 6 MPG at 60 MPH - that's 10 gallons of fuel BURNED/CONSUMED per hour

Fuel Pressure -->
Min 15 PSI at Idle  - 
Max pressure (Fuel Pump relief valve setting) = 50-70 at 1200 rpm
6" Hg vacuum at the primary filter --> clean filter
12" Hg vacuum at the primary filter -> dirty filter

Average fuel temp (most vehicles) 115 degrees F


WVO fuel delivery system

I believe that putting 160-180 degree WVO thru the DDEC "COOLING" plate is NOT A GOOD IDEA

here's a possible solution
#1 By moving the DDEC cooling plate closer to the diesel fuel tank in the fuel delivery path  - you can install an aux electric fuel pump that is only turned on when in WVO mode - this will cool the DDEC with only nice cool DIESEL FUEL - not heated WVO - when it's not running in WVO mode - no fuel can be suck thru it in the opposite direction because fuel pumps are also one way valves - when it's in DIESEL mode -> there is no problems with any backflow - the DDEC cools with FULL fuel flow - you can move the input to the aux fuel pump to after the primary filter to also "polish" your diesel fuel while running in WVO mode.

#2 uses only (2) 3 way valves - not (1) 6 way - dual 3 ways provide a way to purge the fuel pump / secondary filter / and engine / of any unused fuel - based on .3 to .5 gallons per minute fuel delivery on idle - it will only take a few minutes to completely purge the fuel system

#3 because dual 3 ways are used - the turn on and turn off of each vallve can be separte to avoid putting WVO into the diesel tank - with a 6 way valve everthing opens/closes at once and some wvo fuel will always go back into the diesel tank

Pete RTS/Daytona

[Stan]

Charley: The original filter setup is to filter fuel just before it gets to the injectors. Wear particles of the Detroit fuel pump would be very bad for the injectors. On the factory setup, you are sucking fuel through the primary filter but pushing it with about 50 PSI through a much finer secondary filter.

[captain ron]

Ron, Charlie , or what ever you are calling yourself today

As much as I agree with Chris' evaluation of your behavior on HIS board and as much as I have had a few "go arounds" with you on the BNO board -

I think you are headed in a wrong direction as far as keeping your DDEC in the heated WVO fuel delivery path. For what it's worth - here's some additional information and what I PLANNED to do with my RTS 6V92TA DDEC-II WVO system. Now remember these ideas are from a GEEK / NERD - you know the type that you poke fun at all the time -

Here's some design data you need to know when planning your fuel delivery system - this info is for a 6v92TA - if your engine is an 8V92 than multiply by 1.33

FUEL SPILL RATE-
(the amount of fuel returned to the tank)
62.3 Gallons per hour at max rpm /  Full Load
54.0 Gallons per hour at 1200 rpm / no load
approx 80-90 percent of the fuel delivered to the fuel rail is returned to the tank
If your getting 6 MPG at 60 MPH - that's 10 gallons of fuel BURNED/CONSUMED per hour

Fuel Pressure -->
Min 15 PSI at Idle  - 
Max pressure (Fuel Pump relief valve setting) = 50-70 at 1200 rpm
6" Hg vacuum at the primary filter --> clean filter
12" Hg vacuum at the primary filter -> dirty filter

Average fuel temp (most vehicles) 115 degrees F


WVO fuel delivery system

I believe that putting 160-180 degree WVO thru the DDEC "COOLING" plate is NOT A GOOD IDEA

here's a possible solution
#1 By moving the DDEC cooling plate closer to the diesel fuel tank in the fuel delivery path  - you can install an aux electric fuel pump that is only turned on when in WVO mode - this will cool the DDEC with only nice cool DIESEL FUEL - not heated WVO - when it's not running in WVO mode - no fuel can be suck thru it in the opposite direction because fuel pumps are also one way valves - when it's in DIESEL mode -> there is no problems with any backflow - the DDEC cools with FULL fuel flow - you can move the input to the aux fuel pump to after the primary filter to also "polish" your diesel fuel while running in WVO mode.

#2 uses only (2) 3 way valves - not (1) 6 way - dual 3 ways provide a way to purge the fuel pump / secondary filter / and engine / of any unused fuel - based on .3 to .5 gallons per minute fuel delivery on idle - it will only take a few minutes to completely purge the fuel system

#3 because dual 3 ways are used - the turn on and turn off of each vallve can be separte to avoid putting WVO into the diesel tank - with a 6 way valve everthing opens/closes at once and some wvo fuel will always go back into the diesel tank

Pete RTS/Daytona

First off you really need to buy a sense of humor and get over your hurt feelings over a simple joke. If I ever mean to be mean you'll know.
#2 Chris is an @$# period. He didn't have time to help me or even reply to his paying customers for over a year but he has plenty of time to carry on a fight in yet another forum. HMMMM

Now as for my issues. I have or had no intentions of running my VO through my DDEC cooling block. I am making a water circulator and running it through a block to cool the DDEC while running VO.

I am not running any VO through the same filters as my diesel. I have a heated Racor 1000 FG filter/water seperator that I will use for my  Vo system.

I'm not using any 6 way valves only 3 way.

I do appreciate your advice and help and if you really want to help here's an issue I need to figure out. There is a restrictor orfice in the return line to maintain fuel pressure in the fuel rails. I need to find out the viscosity of diesel and the viscosity of 160 degree VO then determine the size of orfice I need to maintain the same fuel pressure when on VO. If you Truly want to help please let me know the solution.

[Stan]

Diesel fuel is made to ASTM D 975-04a and viscosity differs with the fuel grade, but is a standard.  VO is a food product and regulated by the health department and Dept. of Agriculture. If the product you are using varies from solid to liquid at ambient temperature it will vary a comparable amount at 160*.

[captain ron]

There is still a "range" that's not too far off. I need a general Idea and will go from there.

[Stan]

Charley: A cheap viscosity tester from a supplier of auto paints would probably work to test it yourself.

[RTS/Daytona]

Viscosity of diesel/WVO vs temp graph

It would also depend on the amount of any diesel fuel mixed with your WVO

Hmmm -- right from your friends web site

see---> http://www.frybrid.com/svo.htm

or

http://www.cvaieee.org/html/past/Big_Green_Buses.pdf

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html

http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm

[Len Silva]

Just a thought here, but how about using a small (1/4") ball valve as the return orifice.  You could then use a fuel pressure gauge to match the WVO to the diesel pressure at X rpm. Once set, you could remove the handle so know one would mess with it.

FWIW

Len

[Homegrowndiesel]

Good answer (solution) Len.

Bill