HYDROGEN MPG BOOSTER

[cody]

I've been reading this thread and am surprised by the commitment people have to the idea that it doesn't work, I've seen it work and know it does, how it does is a different matter, I don't understand it either but that doesn't change the fact that it does work, hydrogen powered cars are a fact and many are being used by different experimenters today.  I'm only familier with one of them but I remember these same arguements when people were experimenting with propane fired cars and now there are many of them out there.  As far as a diesel application of the hydrogen process I don't know, but in a gas engine it works well.  Michigan Technilogical Univercity has has a hydrogen powered car for over 5 years now and it has been featured in many trade shows, Purdue has been involved with the process for a long time too as others have been.  Anytime a new technology emerges, a lot of people will step forward and say it's not possible, thats ok, but the program still moves forward, not too long ago it was imposible to implant musical or voice data on a small plastic disc but now we have cd's, so be patient and open minded about it. I still can't figure out how I can type on a keyboard and it magically goes somewhere and the words emerge on someone elses pc, remember what everyone said about that a few years ago?

[sweeney153]

It looks like GM thinks it works.

Quoted from the GM web site http://www.gm.com/explore/fuel_economy/altfuel/vehicles/overview/

"No petroleum is needed to power Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell. With hydrogen as the fuel, this real-world vehicle emits only water vapor. That means zero tailpipe emissions. This helps remove the automobile from the environmental debate and reduce our dependence on petroleum. "

[skipn]

After seeing the Stan Meyer's water feul dunebuggy video...ok seeing is believing.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6955825702030656411&total=43&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6

   Struck me as odd to see his co-pilot half standing constantly checking the equipment.
   I don't think I could get my wife to hang on to the back of the buss checking gauges

   For me this is more than this DIY'er would want to tackle but I wish you luck Cody (and good engineering).
   

Skip

[niles500]

How did this get so confused  - Some of you are talking about hydrogen fueled vehicles (which certainly exist and work), some of you are talking water vapor (steam) injection, and some of you are talking about changing the molecular structure of water (using minute amounts of energy).

* Brown's Gas, H-H-O, or whatever you wanna call it, has been around in some way for probably 50 years - most recently introduced as "new' by a co. in clearwater fl. trying to sell it to the DOD

* H-H-O as explained by it's discoverers (new word) is not breaking the valent bonds of H2O resulting in H2 and O2 - but the "alteration" of H2O, ergo something called H-H-O

* No one has proven H-H-O to be a competent technology

* Conservation of mass/energy laws have never been proven to be incompetent

>>>>> Cody, Can you tell me where or if I can see this vhicle? Thanks

[cody]

The plan at this point is to convert my jeep grand cherokee over to hydrogen this summer, because I fulltime and pull my grand cherokee as a towed, I'll have it with me.  I attend bus rallys and the jeep will be there for anyone that wants to see it run or to check it over, right now the format for it is being used in a dodge caravan and is operating nicely, my vehicle will be much more accessable for the busnuts to check out.  The dodge caravan is owned by a friend of mine, a retired engineer from boeing, he is in the process of getting the associated patents on the system he developed.  I think the confusion was based on the idea that this stems from the idea's from the 70's that were supposed to boost gas mileage by injecting water vapor into the fuel mixture, this isn't the case, the process here involves separating the hydrogen from water and using the hydrogen as the fuel, this is proven technology that has existed for quite a while, just hasn't been viable in the past because of the cost of the process, that has been streamlined conciderably and can be done now.  The debate now is between hydrogen cell useage and hydrogen on demand, hydrogen cell is a storage system fed from an outside source like a service station and stored on board the vehicle to be used as needed, this is extremely dangerious because of the volital nature of hydrogen under compression, the new system is hydrogen on demand where it is produced as needed for the engine, eleminating the compression factor needed to store it.

[Tony LEE]

"Keep in mind, we aren't talking about adding water to the fuel, but rather cracking the water molecule using electrolysis and adding the resulting hydrogen and oxygen to the intake air."

There are at least three threads going on here.

One involving WATER INJECTION that has been around since the year dot and one that gets resurrected occasionally when some of the old-timers are having a lucid moment and remembering the good old days when you could actually see a real engine under the hood and not only see it, but actually touch it and work on it.

Another involving running cars on hydrogen. No problem - take your pick between fuel cells producing electricity to turn an electric motor or run an internal combustion engine in the conventional way. Only problems are where to buy the fuel. The others involving safety and weight of the pressure vessel are significant but not insoluble. Transit buses are doing it and non-production cars are doing it. Maybe use nuclear power or solar power to generate electricity to produce the hydrogen. Hmmmm.

The third one - involving the use of electricity - presumably generated on board as you drive - to generate  hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis of water - also carried on board - which is then added (by whatever method) to the combustion process to produce higher output power and/or increased torque ....... is just pure drivel.

[HighTechRedneck]

The third one - involving the use of electricity - presumably generated on board as you drive - to generate  hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis of water - also carried on board - which is then added (by whatever method) to the combustion process to produce higher output power and/or increased torque ....... is just pure drivel.

Suit yourself.  The next time you're using a cutting torch, just turn off the oxygen since it is just pure drivel.    

Adding oxygen to a combustion process definitely improves combustion efficiency of the fuel.  Adding hydrogen is arguable, but not outrageous.

[skipn]

Adding hydrogen is arguable, but not outrageous.

  Does the "Hindenburg"  ring a bell; hydrogen + Oxygen + flame (or 900+fah.) = big wampum fire

   "valent bonds of H2O resulting in H2 and O2"  hydrogen peroxide I believe.

   Of the systems I have read about H and O are not seperated but co-mingled

 

Skip

[boogiethecat]

You guys all crack me up! 
Methinks you need to do some studying on electrolysis, specifically how much energy it takes to break water molecules apart.
Energy in->water molecules break apart->combust them and join them back together again->energy back out, minus some due to process inefficiency.
Basically the [really stupid] laws of physics that the majority of the world agrees on say that the energy doesn't come from nowhere.
If you break enough water apart to get enough gasses of whatever you want to call them in order to recombine them again to get power out of your engine, that very same power just came from your alternator, which got it's poo from the engine....
It don't come from nowhere.....
It's all about poo I think...

Someone out there who's a real believer in all of this: Do it to an engine on a Dyno and let's see some "brown's gas on" vs "brown's gas off" numbers.  And power the brown gas thingie from the alternator of said engine.  And monitor the fuel going in, and the barometric pressure, and the phase of the moon, and whether Mercury is in retrograde or something.  Maybe then you'll finally begin to understand the power of snake oil....

[niles500]

Here do your own dd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen_flame

[skipn]

Granted I have not seen power input versus power output charted and graphed.
It is an interesting concept (niave hope maybe)
It is not always power in = power out case in point: the atomic bomb output <> total input of energy to make it work.
Of coarse that is an overplay on what is truly stored in kinetic energy at the molecular bonding level.
I ain't no physisist thank goodness I ain't no chemist thanks but no thanks.

Don't really know of the hocus pocus that is out there but what was portrayed was 2 watts with 12 volts
for the electrolysis to produce (at what level I know not) is it feasable I know not
Will Cody do it I hope so then we can all look; if it is a bust I am sure Cody will be the first to let us know.

  If You show me a process to convert my bus to snake oil and it is cheaper than WVO I'm all for it.
  Of coarse would it be feasable to gather up enough snakes to sqeeze out the oil to fill a tank. 
   Skip

[cody]

I can't help but wonder if anyone has told GM that the prototype cars powered by hydrogen that they have been field testing for the last 3 years don't run, or the research team from Purdue that they are wasting their time, even tho they have a working car, or the one from Michigan Tech that has been featured at trade shows?  I can't help but wonder if some sort of mass hypnosis was used to convince them that the figments of their imagination that they have designed and ran don't really exist lol.  Gentlemen, the world is changing and we don't have to understand the new technology, just enjoy the fact that it exists and will probably at some point relieve some of the grip OPEC has on us and that alone is a good thing.

[niles500]

Cody - I didn't see where anyone is saying that there is no such thing as hydrogen fuel or vehicles - the claims made about oxyhydrogen are what is at issue - and yes we MUST understand new technology so as not to be hoodwinked by those who would fake the science - there is a horrendous amount of math and science that says it is not new technology for vehicles (although it is used succesfully for welding and a few other uses) - as Boogie humorously points out, the laws of thermodynamics (or POO as he calls it) are still intact - unfortunately so are the wishes of free clean fuel - FWIW

[Chaz]

Niles,
  I think you are correct in:

I didn't see anyone is saying that there is no such thing as hydrogen fuel or vehicles - the claims made about oxyhydrogen are what is at issue - and yes we MUST understand new technology so as not to be hoodwinked by those who would fake the science

but I thought this thread was originally talking about hydrogen as an "assist" such as propane.    In that case, the small amount of hydrogen that the on board electricity can produce [u]"could"[/u] help with fuel mileage............ not?? My guess is that  we will need fuel cells to power a vehicle completely.................at least for now, but who knows.
  I, personally, know that I would be VERY happy to have a unit that would help with "diesel fuel" mileage. Do you all think that is impossible??  I think not.
  But if Cody has a friend who is actually running a vehicle on hydrogen that it produces as it runs....... EXCELLENT!!! I can't wait to see it. And will be looking forward to it as soon as possible. But I'm not going to tell him he is wrong. I would rather encourage him. Just seems like the right thing to do.

     Chaz

[boogiethecat]

FREE FUEL!!!! What a concept (I'm hijacking the thread here a bit).  Heavens, could you IMAGINE the global warming and air pollution us humans would create if we had free fuel to burn and let it's energy loose in our environment? Wheee!!!

Now HERE's a technology that works.  Poo in a big tank, let it rot for a while, and out comes free methane. They heat houses in India these days with just such a thing.
SO,  Modify your engines to run on the stuff, put your sealand potties over a big sealed tank with a hose running to the engine, instead of hassling all the restaurants for their WVO, just pump their daily bathroom spoils to your bus and voila! Free driving!!!
  To heck with Hydrogen... that takes water to make and we all know water is scarce in lots of the USA.  For heck's sake we certainly fight over the stuff a lot!!  Now Poo, nobody wants it.  Horse poo, cow poo, human poo, and maybe even pig poo (gawd knows there's lots of it around)- people LOVE to give it away every moment of the day!!  Let's all run out and put these systems on our buses, and we'll ALL have as much free fuel as we want forever!!
Oh.  you'll only be able to drive a few feet per poo....
Oh well, yet another good idea maybe notsogood...