Fuel costs

[HighTechRedneck]

JC, I don't blame independent fuel retailers, I know the margins are slim.  I know that big oil raises your wholesale price instantly based on oil futures 3 months out.  But I will point my finger at the next guy, that being Big Oil.

I believe in our nation's free market economies.  But free market economies require a modicum of self restraint in areas of "must have" products/services.  Runaway greed on products that people can't really do without can bring a free market economy to the ground.  The petroleum/medical/pharmaceutical industries are taking advantage of consumers need of their products to ramp up profits to an extent previously not even contemplated by more responsible generations.   Unfortunately, short of putting a bag over the industry executives heads and charging them $1 million per breath, I don't see any way of showing teaching them responsibility and restraint of greed.

Unlike many who try to convince people that personally cutting back will make the difference, I am not convinced that America cutting back on its consumption will lower world crude prices.  Up until recently that would have worked.  But now that China and India are ramping up their consumption, I don't believe America can influence the price it pays for oil imports.  The United States population is 300 million.  The combined population of the European Union countries is 490 million.  The population of China and India combined is over 2.5 billion.  The populations of China and India are now coming up into the petroleum age.  As they do so, there will more demand from those two countries than the rest of the world combined.  If 300 million Americans do completely without oil, it won't lower the price one penny compared to what it is now.

So what is the viable solution then?  I believe alternative fuel sources are the long term solution.  Like Len expressed, I'm not sold on using food crops to make fuel.  But there are a lot of other good ideas out there.  I believe that tapping all available domestic sources is the only practical short term solution.  I don't want to see the ecology suffer more, but I don't want to see the United States collapse into a third world economy either.

[Stan]

Since I earned quite a bit of money from the oil industry, as a supplier and as an investor since retirement I suggest that you all buy shares in "Big Oil" and share in the huge profits. You can then drive your bus to the annual meeting and tell the board of directors to lower the price. If the meeting gives you a headache, use your dividends from your drug company shares to buy a painkiller.

If you live in a capitalist country and don't participate, it is like living in a democracy and not voting.

[HighTechRedneck]

Since I earned quite a bit of money from the oil industry, as a supplier and as an investor since retirement I suggest that you all buy shares in "Big Oil" and share in the huge profits. You can then drive your bus to the annual meeting and tell the board of directors to lower the price. If the meeting gives you a headache, use your dividends from your drug company shares to buy a painkiller.

Interesting idea.  But I think I'll pass, I don't want to have to get a hearing aid after the damage to my ear drums that would be caused by the shrill volume of the board of directors laughter at the demand from a few "little guys" in their meeting.  Even a few 1000 shares in companies of that size doesn't give you a viable voice in the stockholder votes.  Besides, just speaking for myself, I would find benefiting from business practices that I contempt to be too hypocritical for my conscience.

If you live in a capitalist country and don't participate, it is like living in a democracy and not voting.

I have spent most of my life participating in capitalism either as an owner or manager and in democracy as a voter.  However, I, and in those times I was a manager, my bosses, never felt the need to rape the public for all we could get just because people wanted or needed our products/services.  We believed in a fair profit margin, quality of goods and services, creating higher volume sales to increase profits and being a good citizen of the community.

[Stan]

Have you not seen the damage done to companies by organizations like Greenpeace and Sierra Club. They buy one share and then demand to be heard at the annual meeting. The media loves it and it makes the 6 o'clock news and the front page the next morning. Corporations don't like bad publicity.

If you feel that you can't win with Big Oil then participate in small oil. There are literally thousands of small oil companies in the world, some only in exploration and production but lots of integrated companies.

There is littler doubt that most oil companies are doing well these days so I am merely suggesting a way to earn the money to pay for the fuel. Investing in the old rust belt companies that are going down the tube isn't going to pay you much in dividends.

China is currently a big importer of oil, but they are doing a lot of off shore drilling and have discovered some fields. If they proceed with oil development like their manufacturing they may turn into an oil exporter.

[Stan]

We believed in a fair profit margin, quality of goods and services, creating higher volume sales to increase profits and being a good citizen of the community.

This is a very commendable quality and if you consistently sold your goods below market price you would have cornered the world market. Very few companies are so charitable that they don't set their price close to what their competitors are charging even if they have a fair margin of profit. That is simply the way the free market system works and everyone decides what they consider a fair margin.

[JohnEd]

Sojourner,

Those are some GREAT references you posted.  I only read some of them but I feel that they back me up.  I don't think I can read them all but I will certainly read more of them.  Thanks again.

John

[jackhartjr]

Stan, there is a lot I could say to your comments...however I would hope that if we met somewhere out here we would be friends.  Then again...with your views...I doubt it would be for long.  What you are saying is basically this.  If you can't fight 'em...join 'em.  Or maybe this...if you don't like being the rapee...be the raper. 
To do what the oil companies have done is wrong! 
Only someone profiting from the oil companies could defend them!
I was brought up being taught there is a right and wrong...and to fight wrongs!  That's why I respond as I do.
Jack

[Lee Bradley]

This is the stort of discussions that will cause me to remove this site from my favorites list.

[TrevorH]

Lee, not to stir anything up but I commonly disagree with things that are said on forums.  That doesnt make them good or bad forums.  If you dont like the particular post, DONT READ IT.

[Dallas]

Lee,

I have to ask why?
No one has made you open the page that has to do with this thread, it has been educational, it is not flaming anyone.
If you feel you need to leave the BBS, that is up to you, but all of us have different things to contribute.
The way I see it is that the only person that is going to be hurt by leaving this board, or BNO, or MC-8.com or 4104.com or any of the various bus/RV/Historical/Diesel/et. al. boards is the one that is leaving.
We'll miss you.

Dallas

This is the stort of discussions that will cause me to remove this site from my favorites list.

[HighTechRedneck]

We believed in a fair profit margin, quality of goods and services, creating higher volume sales to increase profits and being a good citizen of the community.

This is a very commendable quality and if you consistently sold your goods below market price you would have cornered the world market. Very few companies are so charitable that they don't set their price close to what their competitors are charging even if they have a fair margin of profit. That is simply the way the free market system works and everyone decides what they consider a fair margin.

That is why the large company I was a manager in became the market share leader in their category.  They achieved sales in excess of $1 billion per year while selling at 33% to 50% of their competition's retail price.  They employ over 6,000 people nationally and distributed their products through a network of 3,000+ independent wholesale distributors, most of whom carried the products as their sole product line.  In over 40 years of operation, they showed consistent growth and never had to lay off workers.  They are to this day a Christian family owned private corporation.  The company held tight to the religious values of its ownership to such an extent that they still shut down completely on their sabbath day and prohibit employees from voluntarily doing company work on that day.  That company is McKee Foods Corporation, makers of Little Debbies snacks.

And we haven't even begun to discuss the biggest example of a company not running with the pack on pricing, although not as noble in its modern incarnation as it was in its early days, it is undeniably the preeminent example of high volume at low prices.  Of course in this second example I am referring to an unpopular little company named Wal-Mart.

[cody]

To stick to your principles is almost a lost trait.  Too often we see people swinging back and forth as the polically popular stance changes but one common truth will always be stable, the difference between right and wrong.  I was brought up to believe that there is no gray area, something is either right or it's wrong and to trust you gut on it.  I believe that the profits being posted by the large oil companies are examples of a greed unprecedented in recent history and that to me is wrong.  I realize that a company's goal is to make money and how much is too much can be found in the end result, the people that can no longer afford the product.  We used to be respected as a country that stood on ethics and principle, I can't help but question that when I see what is happening in Washington and in the board rooms across the nation.  When I see people loosing their pensions that they worked so many years to get, when I see the elderly going back to work because they can't afford simple health care in their "golden" years, I'm saddened.  Something is wrong here, it's not just the unheard of profits being posted by the oil companies it's so much deeper.

[Ncbob]

Way back, in this thread, I offered some insight as to the role of speculators and their role in the world prices of crude oil.  If I felt, or conveyed, that they were the only factor in these prices I would be misleading all of you.  The Administration, whose financial anchors are and have been in 'big oil' for at least a couple of generations, changed the rules and allowed big oil to run free as far as profits on refined products are concerned. Please don't ask me to quote chapter and verse...but I will and can if necessary.

My point though is this. It is the free enterprise system in action. All the majors have stockholders. Some are retirement funds for Firemen, Teachers, some are funds in which some of us have investments. The point is that it's the stockholders who show the returns on investment from profits...pretty much like Stan stated. It is the foundation on which this country was founded. Private investment has made the economy of this nation.  Government investment usually equates to high overhead costs and poor service.

Not wishing to turn this thread political I'll close with a reminder of what happened in the 70's when then, President Richard Nixon, placed caps on the retail price of gasoline and diesel fuel.  Do you remember the shortages and long lines? Sure, it was a hustle and we were the pawns in the game...but the point is that we just have to work within the system.  When sales drop, and they will, the prices will come down.
Unfortunately there are working families who are going to be hurt, and hurt badly. That's a shame.

America offers more choices for success than any other nation in the free world. If you live in poverty. or even near the poverty line...it's a matter of choice....not economic circumstances.

FWIW

Bob

[HighTechRedneck]

America offers more choices for success than any other nation in the free world.

I agree America has been the land of opportunity.  And I don't disagree that there are still better opportunities here than most places.  But those opportunities are going away at a phenomenal rate.  This is still on topic as the cost of fuel in its various forms is a large component of the drain on both personal and business economics either directly or indirectly.

If you live in poverty. or even near the poverty line...it's a matter of choice....not economic circumstances.

So an 84 year old woman with health problems getting $604/month is way below the poverty line as a matter of choice?  What choice was that?  Retiring when her health no longer supported working?

A hard working man develops a health problem and can no longer work.  Social Security decides that they will give him $1,034 per month (near poverty level) to live on and severely limits what he is allowed to make extra when he can.  What choice was that?

A man's long time business fails due to a combination of economic and life circumstances taking his home, good car and credit rating with it, plus still owes a debt to the IRS.  He can't even get a "good" job because credit reports are now used as the universal measure of a person.  So he makes $270 per week before taxes (near poverty level).  What choice was that?

These are not hypothetical situations.  I personally know each of these people.  They didn't choose poverty.  They aren't lazy.  They aren't career welfare recipients.  They don't want handouts.  They are good people.  They were productive citizens doing it "right" when circumstances happened.

Then I read about people at the top of big oil directing the rabid greed of the oil industry making far more money per hour than these people get all year and it makes my blood boil.

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

I commend all who are involved in this thread!

This in maybe the only 4 pg. + thread that has Not ended up in a flameing war..."YET" and I hope it wont.

Very good discussions here, keep it up!
Nick-