Bio Diesel Again

[Lin]

I spoke to a mechanic that is doing some work for me and asked him about switching out fuel lines on my 8v71 so that I could use biodiesel.  He said he was not sure that would be enough since it was possible that there could be rubber parts associated with other elements of the fuel system like injectors, injector pump, fuel pump, etc.  Is that really a concern?

[tekebird]

you will need new fuel lines, new filtering system(heated) as well as a heated tank be it 12v or coolant heated.

Have good experience now that the 04 project I was involved in ran on B100

[Lin]

Tekebird
     As I understood it, I would only need the heated fuel if I wanted to run vegetable oil.  That may be a plan for the future.  For now, I just wanted to be able to accept commercial biodiesel.  Aside from the fuel lines and possibly cleaning of the tank.  Are there other parts in the system that would have incompatible materials?  I assume that you already are capable of running multiple fuels.  What has your experience been?

[JohnEd]

Lin,

You need to do more research.  I think the older mechanical injectors all do just fine.  I guess the older pumps do OK also.

I do know that you DO NOT have to change out your fuel lines or TANK for crimany sakes.  Yes Dino D does leave behind some deposits built up on the surfaces of your fuel system.  Proven fact.  B100 will dissolve and DISLODGE those deposits.  Proven fact.  It isn't like a wheelbarrow full of sand and gravel, however.  It is more like three filter changes and your OK for a regular filter change interval that is SHORTER than it used to be with Dino but not unreasonable.

You DO NOT need to install heaters in your fuel lines or keep you tank heated.  None of that....if ambient is above 50 degrees.  If you will be running in chillier weather you need to run B50, 50% B100 and 50% Dino.  In real chilly weather you can run B20.  If you are loaded at the end of the summer with B100 you just add Dino in the correct proportions for your situation.  Now that beats heating tanks and what not.  

If I were you and I was willing to install tank, filter and line heaters I would go the extra INCH and install the preinjectors "final" heater and be able to burn "STRAIGNT Waste Vegetable Oil" (WVO).  Then you would only need to add a separate tank for the Dino that you use to warm the engine up and wait for the tanks to heat and for shut down to purge the lines.  WVO is a dollar a gallon.  You could fill your system with B100 when you wanted to splurge.

And the fly in the ointment, you might ask?  I am getting the feeling that not all B100 is the same.  Close but not equal.  Cetane numbers are different for different WVO cause they start out with different varieties of oil.  Palm is the worst but not many use it.  Get that many part?  Running too low a cetane number will void the engine warranty but they also "approve" B100.  See any contradiction there?  Jeepers!

I would use B100 in a heart beat.  It is also a super additive to your regular fill of Dino as it is a great lube to replace the lubricity of the lost sulphur content of new generation Dino.  I understand that the process of removing the sulphur also gets other good stuff and lubricants is one of them.  I recently read that the sulphur didn't lube anything.  Always a twist.

Well Good Buddy if you aren's as confused as I am it isn't due to lack of concerted effort on my part.  If any of it gets unwound here for you I will also be taking notes.  Don't forget that "in a heart beat" part.

HTH

John

[tekebird]

Well if you operate at temps above 55 degrees you won;t have a problem. Bio Blends start to cloud just below 60 degrees.

Also keep in mind Bio has a 60 day shelf life.....so if your not using the bus keep running Dino.

also keep in mind you should expect a 20% loss of power and 20% loss of MPG with B100

also that Bio is more expensive than Dino.

Bio is not economically feasable....SVO and WVO are but have their own sets of issues to deal with.

Only reason the 04 was converted is that the Corp that bought it is very green and wanted to do it......and they have all the money considering they did better than 100k in mods to my 04 which was about as perfect as you might find one

John,  unless Lin is re=unning hard fuel line with no rubber he will need the change the fuel lines....B100 will eat rubber.

[JohnEd]

Takebird,

Rubber is a nono, I understand that.  If anyone puts in "rubber" you should beat him with it....I think.  Isn't "all" the stuff out there neoprene?  Some sillycone?

Hey you!  I just read a very scientific chart that broke out cetane, freeze point and gobs of other stuff about oils you were afraid to ask about.  Unless my memory has failed sinse yesterday.....only a couple of vegy oils have less BTU's of energy in them than Dino.  I have heard that 20% number many times.  What gives?  According to that chart Veggie has more energy and should get better MPG and Pwr.

Another piece of news: add b100 to your GAS.  It cleans that system also and lubricates.

THX,

John

[Lin]

So to recap, all I have to do to be bio ready is make sure all fuel lines are at least neoprene--no old rubber, stock up on fuel filters and be ready to change them when the engine gives some sign (I assume it doesn't just shut down suddenly).  If I am happy with that, I can look to veg oil in the future.  Do I have it right?

[tekebird]

never have your bus in anyplace where the temps drop below 60 degrees.

Oh, it will just up and stop on you...so plan on haing some way to prime or know how to prime.

Unless you are wealthy and super eco consious (nut) it's not worth it from my experience.

We had several clouding issues even with heated filter system and heated tanks.

do whatever you want and listen to whoever you think is right....or whoever's view point you side with.......you are the one who has to live with it.

[tekebird]

Don;t know what research you were readng but I got paid to read up and educate myself for many hours....all my info was in agreement on the 20% loss.......

this was also realized in real life MPG calculations over 3 months and 6000 miles of use

Note this was mostly on Freshly produced B100.

old Bio has an exponential decay in Energy values

[tekebird]

I would also suggest pulling and cleaning your tank......with decades of Diesel Storage I can assure you there is a nice varnish on the tank walls....which will become particulate due to the properties of Bio.

or you can just spend that money on Fuel Filters......it does not take much to clog them......and you will never really know when the tank is clean

[Lin]

Well, I may be somewhat of a nut on several fronts.  Anyway, I did not say I was going 100% bio, and I really appreciated the input and will take it very seriously.  I just want to have the option should I want to do it.  It seems that I would not expect to be in places that are less than 60 degrees while doing summer travel.  The issue of shelf life though is a pretty serious one.  One can not just fill up and forget it but will have to fill according to the trips intended.  Loss of power of 20% is not something that I would be happy with and will have to speak to people that are doing this and see what they say.  There is a biodiesel coop starting up near here, so I will try to get some feedback there too.  I was also thinking of trying to brew my own, but that would be a long way off if I ever really try it.  It is real easy to find guys that drive old Mercedes that rave about veg, but I have not met anyone running a Detroit even for a short time, much less for years.  However, I still would like to have the capability if I want to try it, and I am willing to change some hoses to get there but not much more than that.  Another thing for my list!  I do like the idea of being able to air-up without people around giving the evil eye.  Yes, I know that I could solve that issue with a relatively cheap compressor.  Thanks for the benefit of your expertise.

[Fred Mc]

If our  buses will run on straight dino and also run on straight WVO, what is to stop us from just mixing the two in the tank?  i.e. on refueling add 50 gallons of diesel and 50 gallons of WVO.
Why go to all the trouble to get/make biodiesel?

Fred Mc.

GM PD4106

[tekebird]

I suppose you could but it would not homoginize by itself...and would layer.

not sure which is heavier.

WVO has filtering needs and is even more susceptable to clouding that B100.

A reliable anywhere VO system will cost you about 5k retail for you bus...check with the guy who owns Golden Fuels...he is an MC-6 owner and member of the board......and is the only VO/BIO person I talked to that answered enough questions right to be deemed reliable......most are wackos that buy and sell equip to make your VW diesel run on VO...different bird there.....and they are just retailers.....most I talked to could not pass a high school autoshop class IMHO

VO also has shelf life issues.

[JohnEd]

Takebird,

I have never been paid to research Bio but I would give anyone that has been so employed a lot of credit.  I haven't read anything that you have said that i didn't think was credible.  That being said.....some of these things will stand a little bit of clarification....maybe.

What I have learned about WVO is that it contains a whole bunch of stuff that you remove when converting it to B100.  Maybe 20% is waste.  Water is one thing and animal fat is another and bunches of other stuff from the oil and even methanol/ethanol from the refining process.  Meth does not have the power of Dino.  I think that WVO is most certainly and unarguably "weaker" than Dino and 20% seems conservative.  Given that:  it would seem to me that B100 should approach the BTU of DINO.  Otherwise WVO is greater than 20% less powerful than Dino.

About that shelf life:  The info I have gotten is that if it is "GOOD"  B100 AND is kept in an airtight container, it will last for years.  Without an expansion tank our tanks are NOT air tight.  Water condensate is also destructive.  I guess water is bad in any fuel but in B100 it ruins the stuff in a few short months.  Having two tanks, one for B100 and one for Dino, I think running out the B100 prior to storage wouldn't require all that much planning.  With an air space you should have a sealed tank that will only admit enuf air to compensate for fuel used.  They make additives that preserve B100...just like Dino.

Sound right to you?

John

[tekebird]

sounds about right, my readings during this project all said to expect 20% loss with the Bio...and that is what was realized.

Can't really comment on the HP but it was certainly down.

as for shelf life.

well we started off the product with Fresh unopened 55gallon drums of B100....of unknown manufacture date.  It was bad...ran like crap and neither the Distributor or the Shop (US COach) would stand behind it.  Yes we had it independantly tested.  Testers were supprised that it even would ingite under the compression in a two stroke Diesel it was so bad.