Shifty Advice

[Lin]

I have now had my 1965 Mc-5a for several weeks.  I have not been doing a lot of driving, but some to practice this non-synchro shifting.  I must say that I do not get nice clean shifts most of the time.  Especially when downshifting, I am pretty much assured of getting some grumbling.  Is this the norm (it seems hard to believe that it is)?  Any secrets that I may have missed out on hearing?  Thanks.

[Tony LEE]

The grumbling from the passengers is easily fixed - just tell them if they think they can do better, they can take over.

Have you had a look at
http://www.busnut.com/artrjl2.html
to get a feel for the problem

[zimtok]

There are a few videos on Youtube that show double clutching.
I did one myslef on double clutching up through the gears.

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p--jE1cfhj0

If you do a search for "double clutching" on youtube you'll get quite a few other videos also.


.

[Dallas]

Quit using the clutch, except to stop and start.

Learn to float the gears and feel them as you go from gear to gear up and down.

And just like they say about getting on Broadway,

Practice, Practice, Practice!

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[Lin]

By grumbling, I meant the transmission.  I watched some of the videos on Youtube and am apparently following the correct procedure.  I guess I'll just have to keep up with the practice, practice, practice part.  Though I thought that was only necessary if I wanted to get to Carnegie Hall.

[bobofthenorth]

The best advice I received when I was starting out was from a bus mechanic.  He said drive it to the governor every time.  IOW, make sure you are always right on the governor before you shift.  I don't do that anymore but it sure helped when I was starting out.  And I still grind them - not every time but plenty.

[HB of CJ]

Always use the clutch.  Always use the clutch.  Always use the clutch.  That is what it was designed for...to break the torque for up and down shifting.  If you find yourself sitting at a light or something for more than 30 seconds, shift to neutral.   That is why your tranny has one.  The clutch is used for shifting, not for sitting with it pushed in.  The clutch is not a neutral gear.  You are human and you will get tired or bored and you will miss shifts.  It happens.

Anyway, that is what we were taught and over time I think it was good advice.  Others will disagree.  They have a right too also.  This is an excellent board.  My point is that your Coach is yours and you are responsible for it longevity.   Your choice.  Over time and experience, you will learn double clutching skills.  It's kinda like riding a bicycle or swimming.  You can do it.  Coaches are fun to drive.  It gives us a chance to act silly and young and good stuff like that. 

[Tony LEE]

One skill that needs to be learned with the four speed box is patience when going up through the gears.

When the gearbox is cold, up shifting needs to be reasonable quick because everything slows down faster when cold, but once the oil is warm, up shifting needs to be a leisurely affair because of the big difference between gears and the need for the engine to slow down enough to match the road speed in the next gear. Except for when everything is cold, the timing suggested on the link I gave is not far off the mark.

[tekebird]

if your bus has a spedo and a tach get some red vinyl tape and make some bugs.

Put small pieces on the spedo at the top speed on flat ground against the Gov for each gear

Note what the tach is reading against the gov.  Put a bug there too.

you will have to detrinine where to put the bottom end of the RPM bug for your bus.

When downshifting:  your bus engine will be slowing down RPM.  as if approches the lower tach bug you will need to shift to the lower gear......to do this you will have to apply throttle so the Engine and transmission speeds are synched with the new gear speeds you are shifting into.  This throttle application can be done while in Nuetral during the double clutch operation.

Although some people can and do NOT use the clutch it is not the best for the system and it takes much practice.  I could do it marginally on my 04, but I did it for a change of pace only.  

[gus]

Do what Dallas says.

We don't shift with any load on the trans when we shift without the clutch, if you did you couldn't shift.

You unload the trans by use of the foot throttle-simple to do! Sometimes you can get hung up and have to use the clutch but very seldom.

You won't grind gears any more or less without the clutch. Once you get the feel without the clutch it becomes second nature but that only comes with, practice, practice and practice-as Dallas said.

If you like to use your clutch go ahead but it is a waste of time and effort and adds unnecessary wear to the clutch system!!

It is a mystery to me why more people haven't discovered this method?

[oldmansax]

This discussion is like politics and religion: lots of us have strong opinions and are willing to defend them... I hope NOT to the death 

SO, I have to go with HB on this.

I am sure that my opinion stems from the fact I was taught to drive by folks who were raised during The Great Depression and drove trucks during WWII when parts and repairs were hard to come by & new trucks were nonexistent. Everything was done to minimize the chance of breaking anything and prolong the life of everything. I have had hours long discussions about whether it is more harmful to drive through a pothole in  a parking lot (wear on springs, spring shackles, shock, possible tire damage, etc) or drive around it (tire scrub, steering gear wear, fifth wheel wear, grease wear, etc). We drove without the windows all the way down so sweat from our arms would not get on the paint on the doors. This was way before AC. We only opened one door to exit truck, both drivers would crawl out the same side so as not to wear out the door hinges. We alternated sides so the hinges would wear evenly. We used only one windshield wiper. We jacked the trucks up by the frame when parked at home so the springs would not lose their arch. If you broke a leaf in a spring, it came out of your pay and you replaced the leaf your self and re-arched all the leaves so they matched by hand with a 5 pound hammer on an anvil.

Therefore, I already know I am super sensitive to parts wearing out. No matter how good you are at shifting, you will miss a gear once in a while. When you do, if you are using the clutch, you are less likely to chip a tooth in the transmission. I know the old Spicers are almost indestructible and you can still chip a tooth if you are using the clutch, BUT you are LESS likely to damage the tranny if you use the clutch.

That said, it's your bus & you have to pay for it, drive it however you like.

[gomer]

I feel like if you are comfortable using the clutch, then use it, if not don't.  I do it both ways because of conditions I am in.  On the road, up hills I rarely use the clutch since I go with rpm and speed and it falls in and out like butter on toast.  However,it is your coach and as already been said, you are paying the bills.  I would play around with it and see what fits you and keep on bussing.

Gomer

[DrivingMissLazy]

I have found that if you have an air throttle it is almost impossible to shift without using the clutch. You just can not get the throttle feel needed to do it.
Richard

[jackhartjr]

Boys and gurls!
An old mechanic took me into his shop one day and showed me to identical gears.  One was pretty good looking with no chips out of the metal.  He said it came out of a trannsmission in which the driver double clutched every shift.
The other had chips and gouges all over it and a couple of missing teeth.  He said it came out of a truck of a driver that claimed he was a professional and could drive without using the clutch! 
When you fail to use the clutch you have a lot of the (Fill in the number of foot pounds of torque you coach produces here) power of your engine pushing against the two gears you are trying to mate if it is not a PERFECT shift!
When I trained folks to drive trucks the biggest problem we saw was the new folks trying to rush the shift...in other words they thought they had to clutch and shift as fast as they could.  Once we got them to slow down they would ALWAYS shift well after that!
Jack

[Dallas]

I have to agree with Jack on slowing down the shift.

These machines aren't short shift Muncie M22 Rock Crusher transmissions. Heck, you can't even shift it like a cabover international with a 9 speed road ranger.

However, I've rebuilt many, many, many truck transmissions that were driven by "Professional" drivers. The professional part is only as god as the word. I've met professional drivers that deserve the term and I've met drivers fresh out of truck driving school that shouldn't have been let out of a house alone who were given the qualification of "professional". I also met one a few weeks ago that had been driving for 10 years but had no idea how to shift a manual transmission... He had always had autos.

A real professional driver will never force a gear,(causes the afore mentioned broken teeth). A real professional driver may or may not use a clutch. It all depends on how they were trained, and what they are comfortable with.

My earlier statement to quit using the clutch was a suggestion only. Mostly I don't use it, but there are times and situations in which I do. It is, however, a good way to learn to feel the meshing of the gears and learn to synchronize the engine and transmission speeds.

As you reach the top of the rpm range, let off the foot feed a bit, then step back onto it, at the same time pulling back on the stick. It should come out of gear easily, with very little hesitation.  As the shifter comes out of gear, let off the foot feed and let the RPMs drop while you are passing through neutral to the next gear higher. With a GENTLE pressure, pullthe gear shift to the point where you just feel the teeth start to touch, as the engine slows down, you will feel the gears equalize in speed and start to mesh. With a little more pressure, drop the shifter into the hole and step on the foot feed to accelerate.

I was taught this method over 40 years ago, and it has served me well. I have over 3.2 million miles as both a company driver and as a Owner Operator and fleet owner. I've never had a transmission come apart because of my shifting, and I've never had to rebuild a transmission because of broken teeth or gears.

In my experience, it's drivers that try to cowboy around and show off or force a piece of equipment to do what it isn't built to do that tear up transmissions.

However you drive is up to you and your skill set. Learning to double clutch correctly is a skill and takes some practice, as does floating the gears. Either way can be done wrong with the end result being a broken transmission. Either way can also be done correctly making the transmission last many years before failure.

Good Luck and Drive Safely out there, no matter how you do it.

Dallas