some input on a 4104

[maria-n-skip]

    I was looking at a 4104 and the owner made the following statements:

"runs good and has good power "
"does blow some oil out through the blower when you let out of the power and the governor needs rebuilt (stick in the winter until the engine gets warmed up)"  30k miles on rebuild!

   My gut feeling is that there maybe something major wrong.

   Any insight would be apperciated.

Thanks

   Skip

[TomC]

Personally-anyone buying a bus should have the engine opened up and inspected-course then replace anything that is worn.  I thought my bus had a fresh engine when I bought it since the bus company puts in a new speedo when the engine is rebuilt.  Well it was a fresh engine, except that who ever rebuilt it did not size the cylinder liners properly causing the engine to over heat.  Had to have the block bored .010" over then run oversize liners, and replace one of the heads-this is in 2001.  I thought all was well until last year when I had Don Fairchild turbo my engine.  He pulled down the engine and found everything good except for a very important item-the drive for the oil pump was on the verge of failing.  Also had the transmission overhauled and was on the verge of the third and forward clutch failing.  Now I know everything has been rebuilt and good for the next few years of relatively trouble free driving.  It is both a big pain and much more expensive to have something repaired on the road.  It is your choice-pay now or pay later.  Good Luck, TomC

[Barn Owl]

"runs good and has good power "

Compared to what? Has he done a side-by-side comparison?

"does blow some oil out through the blower when you let out of the power and the governor needs rebuilt (stick in the winter until the engine gets warmed up)"  30k miles on rebuild!

Out of the blower seals, or does he mean tail pipe? What color smoke? How is the governor sticking, wide open? You might have a sticking injector and you would probably see black smoke if that were the case. Find out more and let us know. You can use anything like this to your advantage, it is a buyers market. If purchase price is right, get it and put in a good take out. They are easy to find and are affordable.

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

   My gut feeling is that there maybe something major wrong.

I say, go with your gut. These kind of problems on a "30k rebuild" sounds fishy indeed. 30k is just getting broke-in, and shouldn't be showing these kinds of problems unless it was rebuilt improperly or (more likely) not rebuilt at all.

FWIW, a 671 DD is pretty underpowered for a 12 ton coach, esp. if you ever hit hills. While you can do some upgrades to the mill (turbo, etc.), you might be better off looking for a 4106 or even a Buffalo coach (4107/8, 4903/5) that gets you an 8V71 along with other improvements. Even more $ will get you an MCI or Eagle, etc. Each make has its pros and cons... search the archives here for days worth of reading.

A house that's built on a strong foundation will last. A conversion built on a strong (and well-maintained) shell will last, and save you $ in the long haul.

HTH,
Brian B.

[Dallas]

I have to agree with Brian on the 6-71 being a tad low on ponies.

I really do love my screamin' Jimmy, but if I had a chance I'd upgrade in a heartbeat.

However, the 6-71 was also known as the '238' and with some careful upgrades you can get that much horsepower out of it without losing any of the lifespan of the engine. Or adding a turbo and other major upgrades.
238 is getting close to where the standard 8V71 runs in coach service, which is 260 -270HP, plus without the draw of the A/C compressor and the 50DN alternator on the V models, you should see about the same performance and achieve a bit better torque performance since the torque curve on an inline six is quite a bit better than that of a V engine.

From what you describe, it sounds like the owner has no idea what is actually happening with the engine and most likely is operating the engine with the wrong oil and/or letting it idle a lot. After these engines idle they do what's called cold stacking or wet stacking, where fuel isn't burned completely then ends up in the exhaust and the airbox. When you go to drive it you'll decimate the population of mosquitoes for miles and miles around. These engines definitely like to run and run hard.

If he is using the wrong oil, (Multigrade vs single weight 40Wt API CF-2), the engine will blow copious amounts of oil and look like it's on it's last legs.

The next time you go to look at it, take a couple of wrenches with you. Open up one of the airbox covers ( a cover on the side of the block under the blower), and see how much crap and crud is in there. While you have it open, turn the engine over until you can see the piston rings to see what kind of shape they are in. Also take a flashlight and look at the inside of the liners to see it there is any wear or scoring on the cylinder. These things can give you a good heads up on what kind of shape the engine may be in.
Stick your finger or a straw in the radiator and see if any black stuff (combustion byproducts) are floating on the top. This is not a good sign and indicates a leaking o-ring, injector tube, cracked head, or worse.

These old engines are built to be able to handle the abuse that a company driver can dish out, and believe me, they'll take a lot of it.

If the price is right, and you like it, go for the bus and enjoy it. After all, it's closing in on old age and it was sold because it was no longer economically feasible to operate it in revenue service. Your gonna have to work on something, it might as well be the engine.

As long as you aren't in a hurry to get places, and like to sit back and enjoy the scenery, the 6-71 will take you anywhere you want to go.

Dallas

[maria-n-skip]

Schuss!
    I don't know where my manors are.....

  In the last month my wife has really gotten excited about our bus conversion.(I thought that would never happen) So I added her name so she can post questions herself. She doesn't like having her own id etc. even in our email she uses mine. But silly me forgot to tell you fine people. For that I am sorry.

   So why in the heck would I consider a 4104 when I have MCI. So far this summer I have missed several outings
with friends and their 33-35 ft class A. MOstly due to length restrictions. 40 ft is to big for a lot of the smaller
places and these are some of the sweetest places to camp. (I really think it is a conspericy because they're jealous) So basically I was(am) looking for a mountain knock around that I won't worry about scratches etc. I definitely will be
in places where roadside service does not exist! So mechanically sound (as can be) is paramount.

   I have always appreciated the info you all graciously give and I will always be a newbie (well at least in spirit)

    Skip   formerly known as Skipn
  Helena mt.

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Skip, since you already have a big bus, if it were me, I wouldn't be shopping for a slightly smaller one. Double the maintenance and double the time commitment to keep two buses converted and on-the-road. And think of the oil spots around the house! 

Why not consider a small Class B (van-chassis) RV that can really go places your bus can't? Some even come in 4WD. You could even tow it behind your MCI and/or use it as a daily-driver.

Just a suggestion,
Brian "wishin' I had a small Class B" Brown

[maria-n-skip]

Thanks for the reality checks you know being b-nuts is fun but can be common sense void at times.
I passed on the 4104
It seems; No matter what I could have designed my bus to handle the reality is that it can't be built to handle all situations.

So I will put the money into fixing the old 23' class C for weekend small lot camping. I'll probably spend close to the same
amount as the 4104. I've put over 70k miles on the old girl, three trannies, 6 torque convertors. etc etc etc

  The one thing I have found out about my self is that once I reach X amount of money and time limits if anything happens I'm done
with it. It can rust into the ground stubborn to a fault. So I never get rid of anything! This summer I am cleaning up and have had
5 pickups and one dump truck hauled off in trade for another Cummins L10. Well at least it takes up less space.


    Brian-----A quick question.  Wouldn't a class 'B' be considered to big to be called "a Toad"  maybe "Bull Frog"?

   Thanks again to all
Skip