Louvers for cooling

[Chaz]

Hey Guys,
  Just a quick question:
    I have been reading the thread on cooling and was wondering about the possible advantage/disadvantage of louvers on the left side radiator door as opposed to the expanded metal? I have been told that that is the way they did it for a purpose, and that if it's not broke don't fix it. But it seems like when you are going down the road, it would be an advantage. And I "think" I could make louvers of different heights (shorter towards the front to taller in the back) to be able to catch more air to push it thru.
  Reason I ask is because this fall I will be going to another metal meet and I do believe there will be a louver press there that I can build a nice louvered door. AND a louvered panel for on the back above the motor if that would help also. Heck, I'd even consider facing those louvers upward in theory that the air would go out quicker.
   I don't think my bus is getting hot, altho the thermostat says it's a little warmer than I like, Jerry Lieber checked it no more than I got to the rally and he said it was 185 on the top and 155 on the bottom when my gauge said it was hotter than that. I will be putting a good gauge back at the motor for verifying, but I figure either way, more air is better. And I don't have an opportunity like this but about once a year.
   Whattaya think??
   
    Tryin to be "Cool",
             Chaz

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Chaz, the danger of removing the expanded metal is potential fin damage from any road debris. And it passes plenty of air in the stock setup. IMHO, your time would be better spent helping cool the aftermarket automatic transmission. What's the setup for cooling it... heat exchanger? Air cooler? Fan? Trans. door louvers?

My trans oil is on a totally separate cooling system with a massive air to oil cooler, 24v, and "aerated" trans door and "well". This keeps the trans. oil from heating up the engine coolant the way it does in most setups.

HTH,
Brian B.

[buddydawg]

Brian,

What does a trans cooler set up like that cost?

[Chaz]

And THAT would also be my next question. How much?
The louvers would be almost free for me to make. And I don't think the holes - width wise - would be any bigger than the x-metal. They may pick up a little extra debris, but i wonder how much that would hurt.
  I was also toying around with the idea of a - shall we say - larger louver at the back that would come out at speeds and direct more air in. Something like a NASCAR roof flap when the car is going backwards.

   Just a thought.
         Chaz

[Dallas]

Since the GMC's had the full flap across the back behind the tires to create a low pressure area, and also had pans underneath the engine compartment, I wonder if there would be any benefit to building a set of louvered pans to replace what the mechanics got rid of when the buses were new?

Dallas

[TomC]

Louvers were originally used for cold weather driving on trucks without thermostats. The 2 stroker Detroits create alot of heat, so that's not the case anymore.
As far as auxiliary transmission cooler, I ordered my Hayden transcooler with elec fan through www.bulkpart.com for around $480.00.  Additional $300 for the hoses and additional, spent about $1000 total on it, but is worth it since it keeps things cooler.  Good Luck, TomC

[Chaz]

My pans are also gone, Dallas. I don't even know what they would look like! But are you suggesting that they could/should be made with louver opening towards the rear to help suck out the air??

So that said, Tom, do you think the louvers are a bad idea to get more air flowing across the radiator?? It the other cooling thread, (I think it was David) said that a fan that sucked more air thru the radiator did it for his bus's cooling issue.

I guess the grand it costs to do the trany cooler thing is worth it if ya need it, but I am just trying to help things along a bit at as little cost as possible. Like I said, I'm not sure I need much if any at all. And if I can fab the solution out of metal, that is all the better for me!!

Do any of you guys know anybody who may have tried something like this?? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just help it roll a little better. I like trying things, but hate spinning my wheels. So I want to make good decisions before I invest the time.

By the way, I am going to replace the flap under the bus, at the back wheels, in hopes that that will also help. I still have mine on there, but it is missing a little here and there. Probably won't help much, but I know it won't hurt either.

   Coolin out,
        Chaz

[Dallas]

Chaz,
If you look underneath the engine cradle you will see a bunch of attachment points where the pan went.

As far as I can tell the pan must have been louvered.... otherwise the heated air had no where else to go. Remember, the back of the bus was closed off and the flap caused a low pressure area which would cause the air to be sucked out over the engine and out the bottom.

I also hate throwing gobs of money at something in order to make it work, especially if the engineering has already been done and is much more elegant.

Some day I'm going to build some pans to replace what isn't there now and see what kind of difference it makes.
I have a master parts manual that covers all models of transit and parlor coach from TDX 3209 to TXX5104 and all Parlor Coaches from 2904 to 4104.
I might be able to find something in there.

Dallas

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Brian,
What does a trans cooler set up like that cost?

Now, bear in mind that my cooler is the ONLY cooler on the tranny, since the coolant-to-oil filter was removed for this unit. If you only need  supplemental cooling, you don't need a beast like this.

The guy I bought my bus from said the AIHT unit was over $500. BTU calcs require too many unknowns (at least to me) in a V730 application, like line pressure, gallons per hour, and oil pressure drop.  But the unit on my coach is manufactured by American Industrial Heat Transfer, the model is an LP30, but it looks like their new name for that particular model is the LP300. It's about 16"x21"x3" thick, and has a 1200cfm fan. Their brochure for the LP series units is here:
http://www.aihti.com/pdf/lp.pdf And the corporate website is here:
http://www.aihti.com/

Hayden manufactures a heavy-duty line of coolers that a lot of busnut use. http://www.haydenauto.com/catalogs/hayden/2007-hayden-trans-oil-coolers.pdf
I can't find any specs on their site, but you can Google for "Hayden Oil Cooler" and get a range of sizes that might work for you. Most are mere "toys" compared to mine, but might be OK for supplemental cooling.

I did find a few "Allison" coolers, that are pretty darn beefy, and not as much $$. Check it out:
http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=Allisoncooler

HTH,
Brian B.

[Chaz]

Dallas,
  If you should happen to find a picture, and can scan it, I'd be interested and appreciative.

  I'm still hoping the louver thing is a possibility and that it is a viable addition to help cool. It would also look "cool" and my x-metal is kinda beat up. 

   Chaz

[TomC]

Just went up to Bakersfield today to have the engine fine tuned by Don Fairchild.  ON the way I noticed that VanHools have vertical louvers facing forward on the radiator.  Chad-I think vertical louvers would look really good  Good Luck, TomC

[RJ]

ON the way I noticed that VanHools have vertical louvers facing forward on the radiator.  Chad-I think vertical louvers would look really good.

Prevost also uses vertical louvers on their radiator compartment door.  Gillig Phantoms use expanded mesh, like GMC.

Chaz, if you really want to try and improve on the factory, might I suggest that you get a couple of skeins of yarn, cut into 8" strips or so, and tape them all along the side of your bus, from the front to the rear.  Then go for a drive on the highway, with somebody along in a chase car with a video camera.  Film what the strips do at 30 mph, 50 mph and 70 mph.   Then you'll have a much better idea of the air flow, and can base your modifications, if any, on your findings.

Oh, besides replacing the full-width mudflap, try mounting a piece of 1.25" or 1.5" angle vertically along the FRONT edge of the radiator opening.  Same principle as the mudflap.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[Chaz]

Hey Russ,
  I guess thanx is in order, but I'm not sure if you're yankin my short chain or not.  I'm not trying to get the bus more aero in the corners so I don't hit the wall when someone comes up along my inside (read NASCAR), just drag in more air. 
  And I'm really not sure about the angle iron thing. Wouldn't that deflect the air or try to pull the air out instead of pushin it in?
 
   I'm just an airhead, I guess,
          Chaz

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Chaz, I don't think he's jerkin' your chain... just giving a great suggestion on how to truly visualize the airflow of these "bricks" we drive. I think it'd be a real interesting exercise, like those wind-tunnel tests with smoke help one see where the air "flows and goes".

The P.O. put a rad scoop on mine. I have no idea if it actually helps with cooling or hinders. Maybe it's time for Russ' Yarn Test.

Brian B.

[RJ]

Chaz -

Brian's right, not jerkin' your chain, just making a suggestion.

But that makes me think of something that should be the topic of a new thread. . .