OT - Winbebago RV plant tour - What a joke!

[belfert]

I was down in Forest City, Iowa today, home of Winnebago, to get something for the bus from Winnebago Surplus.  In a moment of weakness I decided to go on the plant tour.

The construction of their RVs is a joke!  The first 15 feet of the side of my bus has more metal in it than the side of a 40 foot Winnebago.  The only thing holding the roof and sidewalls together is an interlocking joint.  No wonder motorhomes explode in a pile of bits in an accident.

I knew production motorhomes were not made all that great, but I didn't realize just how bad they really are.

The RV industry really needs to do more automation and standardization to bring quality up and prices down.  Workers spent a lot of their time switching tasks or changing tools instead of actually assembling anything.  They had something like six assembly lines, but they were not dedicated to any particular model or even chassis type.  One motorhome might be a class A diesel pusher and the next a Class C on a Sprinter chassis.  I can see how workers make mistakes when they are constantly switching models and having to remember how that particular model goes together.

[coolbus]

Hence the term...

STICKS & STAPLES!

Mark

[ChuckMC9]

And Winbebago is one of the better brands.

[belfert]

Winnebago actually uses hardly any staples except to secure the flooring.  The only wood is the floor and under the fiberglass, and the paneling of course.

Aluminum sided travel trailers are the real bad guys for sticks and staples.  The walls and roof are wood while everything including the aluminum siding is stapled. 

I had to do a fairly extensive repair to my travel trailer to fix a problem with one of the sleeper sofas coming loose.  The support board in the wall was too short (or studs in wrong place) so the staples to hold the board to the the studs missed.  Two visits to different dealers didn't fix it so I finally ripped the wall open and fixed it myself.

[Dallas]

In 1986 I bought a 1984 Winny Chief. I had had lots of buses before, but thought I'd go with something that could be repaired with parts from Autozone and Home Depot.

When I bought it, it had 28,000 miles and by 1988 I had raised that figure to 55,000 miles.

One happy weekend I had the family in the unit and was headed west into Western North Dakota for a couple of days of fun and excitement. As I was driving down I-94 I happened to look in the mirrors to check and see if a intermittant marker light on the left rear was still lit. Much to my surprise, I saw the top of the M/H swaying back and forth by what looked to be 8-10" while the lower portion around the belt line was solid. I figured I'd had some water intrusion and figured I'd fix it whenI got home.
Well, when I got home, I removed the roof metal and all the fixtures and fittings to get to the studs and joists which seemed to be "weak".
I found that the studs were not topped by a plate but had the roof joists stapled BESIDE the studs.
The only thing connecting the studs together was a glorified furring strip that the joist sat on about 1 1/4" below the top of the stud, then the joist was stapled with 2 staples from the side of the joist to the top end of the stud. The furring strip didn't even go the full length of the coach, it actually ended between 2 studs so that 3 studs were connected together and then 3 more and so on. Once I rolled back the roof metal, there was absolutely no stability to the walls.
I did what I could to repair the wiggly problem and buttoned it back up.

I then promptly put a for sale sign in it and never drove it again.

I saw that M/H on eBay a couple of years ago, (I knew it was mine.. it had a stripe on it that I painted there to cover up a repair that I made from the P/O's bad backing.), It sold for $5500, which in my opinion is about $5,000 more than it was worth. I always wondered if the new owner(s) ever did anything to correct the problems.

Never again will I buy a M/H to put my families life in. I'd rather drive my 55 year old GMC than one of those factory death traps.

Just my experience.

Dallas

[Moof]

Two days ago there was a motorhome accident on the Kenai Peninsula in Cooper Landing, Alaska.  The Sterling Highway can be a tricky road to drive.  Lots of curves and it gets pretty close to the Kenai River.  The motorhome left the road went into the ditch and hit some trees.  It tore the side open and ejected two people from the vehicle.  They didn't survive.

This highlights exactly what has been said by you all.  Automobile manufacturers are held to fairly high crash standards.  I think most people who purchase these vehicles do so with a false sense of vehicle safety.  I would like to see the test where they put a family of crash test dummies into one of these vehicles and hit something at 20mph.  If that test were made public it would probably have a negative impact on their sales.

I bought a 93 "Minnie Winnie" in '93.  Thought it was a good purchase.  I didn't even get to the Alaska / Canada border and one of the drawers broke while driving down the road.  (It wasn't even a bad stretch of road).  In 94 I bought a diesel Bounder.  I liked the idea of a chassis that didn't have frame extensions welded onto it to make it longer.  I thought it was built better.  Wrong!!  The air intake was located behind the back wheel.  Dusted the engine.  After much fighting I was able to get a new one. I redesigned the intake to the air came from the roof with an air pre-cleaner on it.  It was falling apart on the inside anyway so I sold it. 

For the past 10 years I have been looking forward to owning a bus.  I expect to buy one this winter.  I had hoped to do the conversion myself, but time won't allow that.  At least in the end I will be more confident that my family will be in a safer vehicle.

You folks call these vehicle "Sticks and Staples".  My wife calls them "Cardboard Campers".

That's my two cents.

[TomC]

Being an old truck driver with 21 years over the road and 1.3 million miles of driving, I've seen numerous accidents with RV's, and most are not pretty-alot involved the death of driver and co-pilot.  My bus complete with full fuel with my wife and I in it weighs 31,000lb.  I get Motorhome magazine and regularly show my wife how a production motorhome in the 38-40ft range with multiple slides (extra weight) regularly weighs 4-6000lb less then our transit bus conversion.  Wonder where that weight goes?  Think wood is lighter than steel?  The only Motorhome I'd buy is a Blue Bird, Newell, or any based on a Prevost, VanHool or MCI bus shell.  It alarms me how people driving sticks and staples motorhomes think they have a big layer of protection just because the vehicle is big!  Do figure. Good Luck, TomC

[Charles Seaton]

The prices of these motorhomes are incredibly out of whack with the quality of their construction.  It's obvious that all of you think as I do.  It's a lot better to put your money into upgrading an older bus (transit or over-the-road) than buying anew motorhome.  The quality and durability were designed in by GM, MCI, Eagle etc.  If properly taken care of even the oldest of our buses will outlast a sticks and staples.  Wtness any of us that have Silversides, PD4103s or 4s.  I have a 40-year-old fishbowl and it still holds up well.   

[belfert]

The prices of these motorhomes are incredibly out of whack with the quality of their construction.  It's obvious that all of you think as I do.  It's a lot better to put your money into upgrading an older bus (transit or over-the-road) than buying anew motorhome.  The quality and durability were designed in by GM, MCI, Eagle etc.  If properly taken care of even the oldest of our buses will outlast a sticks and staples.  Wtness any of us that have Silversides, PD4103s or 4s.  I have a 40-year-old fishbowl and it still holds up well.   

After seeing the plant tour, I think costs could be cut fairly dramatically with more automation.  The problem is not enough sales and too many different models.  I've been to auto assembly plants and they work much faster and with more quality due to automation and usually only one model with a few variations.

The problem is too few sales.  They sell as many Toyota Camrys in one year as all motorhome sales of all makes and models.

I still wouldn't buy a stick and staples even if prices came way down.  Even at these high prices, some of the manufacturers are losing money.  It is not a high margin business.

[Dallas]

Two years ago, Cat and I thught we'd waste a day and go to the Big RV show at Darlington Raceway.
We saw Fleetwoods, Winnies, Bounders, Endevours, Dutch Stars, Mountain Aires, Etc,etc, ad naseum.

The low end diesel Bounders (made by Fleetwood) were running about $228,000 with the high end going over a half million.

Fleetwoods were starting a little higher than that and going toward $750,000

I don't remember what the Winnies were, but the Dutch Star on a Freightliner chassis with a 330 Cat engine and a 6 speed Allison were srting out in the $650,000 range.

None of the units we looked at had any quality built in at all, in fact on the Fleetwood and Bounder models, the plastic on the front of the dash wasn't hidden where it met the top of the dash at all, it was just overlapped.

Cabinets and cupboards were made of MDF or particle board with usually a really crappy wood or vinyl veneer over it.

Hinges were of the 99¢ type and held in with 1/2" screws. Drawer slides were usually plastic.

Many of the units we looked at had broken cabinet doors or drawers just from the ride from the sales lot to the show.

If I recall correctly, ( I may be wrong), The Dutch Star units had delamination both inside and out with pieces of plastic moulding coming off everywhere.

Even looking at the tanks and pumps and other mechanicals was like looking at someones idea of a joke. We saw standard $50 shurflo waterpumps set up in a bay that was nearly 25' from the shower and at least 9' below the shower head. Plastic holding tanks with caulking around the fittings where they had been "repaired", Basement A/C-heating systems that had no fresh air intake (the intake was actually up against the bay door so was sealed off when closed. One had all of it's tanks strapped down with plumbers tape to hold them in place.

I've been turned away from campgrounds because my bus is old and not very pretty, but I do believe that it will still be runable in the next 30 to 50 years, which would make it over 100 years old.

I've also been turned away because I didn't have an RVIA emblem on my bus. As far as I'm concerned, RVIA is a self serving, ridiculous association perpetrated by the manufacturers to try to keep the government from overseeing the construction and sales of RV's.

OK, off my little soap box.... who's next?

Dallas

[Hi yo silver]

I'll go next.  I had a new Terry, 26' self contained trailer.  To make a long story short, I arrived at a campground after dark on a rainy night.  Left it hooked up to the truck and went to bed.  The next morning when I went out to hook everything up, I heard a hissing sound; thought I had a tire with a leak.  After feeling and listening for a while, I discovered the hissing was an overheated wire surrounded by wet insulation.  They stuffed too many 12 volt wires through a small hole in the 2x4 wood sill plate and one got squashed.

Fast forward to the next trip out.  A 110 volt circuit breaker kept tripping.  After tearing half the trailer apart, I found a section of Romex run through the same hole in the 2x4 sill plate as a copper gas line.  A hole had rubbed through the insulation on the Romex.  Fortunately, the wire burned "open" before it burned through the gas line.  Could have been a very "bright" day! 

When Fleetwood suggested I take it to the dealer for checking for a problem, I just shook my head and laughed.  (The dealer has a terrible reputation.)  I recognized a loosing battle before I started into it, and just sold the trailer.  No more for me.  I'm lookin' for a bus!
Dennis

[NJT5047]

We bought a 1990 Terry Taurus 29.5' fifth wheel.  Wore out 2 sets of tires on the camper.  Never had a failure of any component. 
Kept it inside when not being used, which really helped keep it from rotting out.  It was a relatively cheap item with aluminum sides.  But it was unique with a front living room.  This was cool as H when stuck inside during bad weather.   You watch all the goings on from way up in the air.  Sold it to the first person that looked at it...worked well for us.  We pulled the camper from upstate New York (Winterhawk Festival) to Key West, FL.  At least we did when Key West had the downtown campround.  Right around the corner from Sloppy Joe's and Hogs Breath.  Walk anwhere  you wanted to go from there.  Alas, that's no longer an option.   I was very pleased with our cheap Terry...got my moneys worth plus some.  Sold it in '01 after I bought the bus. 
There are a lot of campers that are useful..they are all over.  Then, a good may of them are junk.  Our friend has a 2 year old Itasca Meridian that has been a total nightmare....that thing cannot be repaired.  They have not yet figured out why the cranking batteries go dead if left for a week off the charger.  This is serious crap when out boonying. 
The Meridian was at the selling dealer for resolution of  several problems (slide out issues for another biggie) and the mechanic left the entry door unlatched and moved the coach...door caught the fence and screwed up some very expensive paint. 
My brother has a class C that's a total piece of crap.  4.0 Onan fails annually.  It leaks at every joint...real nice design, still a piece of crap. It's ten years old and essentially rotted out.  Has a nice Ford V-10...cool engine.  Hungry engine.  Get the same milage as my bus.   
Looked at an RV salvage yard at motorhomes after I bought the bus...thinking I'd scavenge some useable cabinets or whatever from a wreck.  Found out that there really weren't any "cabinets"...just stapled up plywood.  Couldn't believe the light damage on the outside and a virtually total lossed interior.  Nothing was salvageable once the weather got to it..and it always did.   Wrecks and fires.  Saw a lot of big TVs that fell from their above-the-driver location.  Looked dangerous. 
Don't know how the insurance companies deal with these things?   
Just finished loading the bus...we are leaving Wed AM, I'm all ready to go now!   Anyone near Laurel Lakes Campground in Salemburg, NC (near Fayetteville, NC), stop by!   Not many people around here will talk buses with me anymore. They've all runned oft!
Cheers, JR

[belfert]

My Jayco travel trailer wasn't that bad except for the problem with the backer board for the sofa not stapled in properly.  It was a one evening fix for me.  The only other problem was the furnace.  Jayco replaced the original under warranty, but the dealer didn't do something right.  It would not stay lit.  My buddy placed some tape partially over the air intake on the outside and it magically started staying lit.

I put at least 20,000 miles on the trailer over the three years I had it.

[David Anderson]

OK, I'll bite, too.

I lurk at the Escappees RV forum a lot and they have a bus conversion category.  A lot of bus bashing goes on in that category, so I guess we can bash the RV's here at ours.  There is one poster who for whatever reason has a real rub against Mike and MAK in general.  No positive feedback from him for sure.

Anyway, Belfert hit it right on.  There are just too many models and no efficiency in production, thus high costs which for whatever reason, consumers plunk down their hard earned cash and buy these expensive toys. 

As more boomers get behind the wheel of these rigs and more accidents happen, I assume the Fed's will exert more influence against manufacturers.  200 yards of strewn clothing, groceries and furniture in a hiway accident gets all kinds of attention on the 6 p.m. news, none of it positive. 

David

[RJ]

We had a 1988 Coleman tent trailer that we pulled all over the 11 western states with our 1991 Dodge Mini-van. Lost a tire in Vail, CO, but had a spare, which got us into Denver.  Had the Suburban furnace fail to light, turned out to be a blown fuse.  Converter charge line kept the single deep-cycle charged while running down the road, propane stove and mini-fridge always worked as long as we had propane (minor detail, eh?).  Held up surprisingly well from when we bought it (used, in fall of 1989) until we sold it in the spring of 1998 - much better than our friend's Starcraft unit.   Kids still talk about some of our excursions, and they're both grown adults now.

Guess Coleman did a better job than the others back then. . .  But now that Fleetwood owns them, I wouldn't touch one.

Still wish we could have done all of that with the kids in a bus conversion. . .  (I envy you, Buffalo Spaceship Brian!!!)

FWIW & HTH. . .