Determining bus value

[RonKStevens]

I am trying to determine a fair value for my bus with all of the modifications and work that has been completed on it since I purchased it one year ago. I am interested in the opinions of others for what a fair purchase price would be. Here are the specs and modifications:
2002 Novabus RTS, 35 foot narrow front door. 400,000 miles on odometer
Detroit Diesel Series 50 engine. Balance shaft just replaced. No issues.
ZF 5HP592C transmission. Inspected by authorized ZF shop. Determined better than average condition
Regeared with Weller 4.10 rear gear. Top speed 78mph

Original 35 transit seats removed.
6 high back reclining seats installed with 3 point seat belts and LATCH hooks
2 high back non-reclining seats installed with 3 point seat belts and LATCH hooks (over front passenger side wheel well)
RV dinette and table installed
2 bunk beds installed in rear over wheel wells
Operating wheelchair lift
Carpeting except at rear door/wheelchair lift area
New drivers seat with 3 point seat belt
Curent valid Pennsylvania inspection

I'm interested in what it's value is now, and also how much a new paint job would increase its value.

[windtrader]

In your post you use two terms "fair value" and "value now". Another term "market value" is often used. "Stated value" "Actual value" etc. These are not interchangeable and depends on how the number will be used.


If needed for insurance purposes you may find "stated" and "actual cash value" ACV useful. If for personal balance sheet purposes you might use "fair value". If you intend to put it for sale, you can use "fair value". If you want to actually SELL it, then "market value" may be the closer number.


One number that has the least relevance to true market value is what you have in it unless you apply a generous discount to what you fixed and added.

[RonKStevens]

I need to know for insurance purposes.
After a lengthy discussion with my insurance agent concerning what to set the value of the vehicle in the policy, it was suggested to ask others to see what the value of the vehicle would be. Although if a claim needs to be filed, the claims department would figure out what they think the value of the vehicle is, no matter what is stated on the policy. However, we agreed that a modified bus is a somewhat unique vehicle, and a claims adjuster cannot check on a vehicle value the same way as if it was a Ford Escape.
So to determine this value I was to ask others what they felt my bus was worth. I assume that they are looking for what a reasonable selling price would be.

[niles500]

For insurance purposes "agreed value" is the magic number - fwiw

[RonKStevens]

I don't care what the dollar amount is called. I'm just looking for a dollar amount or range.

[richard5933]

I think that it will be a bit harder to determine a value on a partially finished conversion than one ready-to-camp. Being in a transit bus also makes it more difficult since there are far fewer to compare against.

Have you been able to find any other listing for similar buses?

[niles500]

Your insurance agent is an idiot

[richard5933]

Are you working with an independent agent or one that works through a specific company? Might be time to find a good independent agent that can write policies with multiple insurers.

Not sure that your agent has the procedure down correctly, although perhaps in your state things work differently (insurance varies greatly by state).

When I got my policy it worked something like this to get a policy. Liability was based largely on my driving record and the category of vehicle, in this case a motor home. Just a matter of choosing how high I wanted the limits to be. There is no connection between the value of the bus and my liability insurance, and this is the only piece of insurance I am required by law to have.

The comprehensive & collision policies were the tougher ones. Obviously the "book" value for an old bus is nearly nothing. I wanted a 'stated value' policy (they're called different things in different states.) My agent told me to pick a number which represented the bus's value at the time. Then the policy application would be sent to underwriting, and they would have to determine if they could support the number set.

Since there is no book to look in like on current-model vehicles, the underwriting team wanted a few things before approving the policy. They wanted photos to show them the current condition of the vehicle, a detailed description, and a professional appraisal.

I had Spike (old-school bus guy in New England - does appraisals and has worked in the industry for a long time) do an appraisal to support the value I placed on the bus. It cost about $500 for the appraisal and took just a couple of weeks.

Once the appraisal was in place, Underwriting stamped my application and a policy was issued through Progressive. Easy-peasy, right?

Well not so much. Just having the policy in place doesn't guarantee that if there is a total loss you'll get that amount. I think that this is what your agent was trying to explain. For example, my policy is written for a stated value of $xx as of the date of the policy being written. Should there be a loss at some later point in time, the company will try their hardest to adjust that amount to account for age, wear & tear, depreciation, etc. I will have to demonstrate why it's still worth the same thing as it was when we all agree to the stated value.

It is possible to get an insurance policy which will automatically pay the full amount regardless of what happens in between, but those policies are typically so expensive as to make them useless to a bus owner. My understanding is that they are typically used for newer vehicles which are being financed so that you are not left with a loan to pay on a vehicle which was totaled and the insurance won't cover the full loan amount.

How will I be able to prove what my bus is worth when there is a claim later on? When my first bus was totaled a few years ago we had the stated value set at $30,000. It was totaled less than 6 months into the policy, and I gathered up every photo of the improvements I made, every receipt, and added up all the time spent on the projects. In the end I was able to get the full amount from them but it took some effort, as they were trying to claim the value had dropped in the short time I owned the bus. I didn't have an appraisal on that one (it was under the value which required an appraisal) but it would have helped lots.

It's been almost five years since the appraisal on our current bus was done, and it's probably time to get a new one written. Lots has changed in the world since then, prices have changed on everything, and we've made lots of improvements since then. Having a fresh appraisal it helpful.

If your bus is not a completed conversion, you'll likely wind up with a value much lower than you'd like. Hopefully you already have the liability policy already - you should have it even while working on the bus if it is able to run/drive at all. The comp/collision policy is something you can continue to address. Get the policy for what you think the bus is worth if you can get underwriting to agree to it. Later on after the conversion is completed you can always go back and make a case for a higher value.

Hope this helps.

[RonKStevens]

The stated equipment list IS the finished conversion. No cooking equipment. No toilet. No water system. No APU. No anything else. Just what was listed in in OP.
Keeping my bus as a bus for private use and not an RV (at least by the definitions in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania) also severely limits what companies will write a policy for it to begin with. I also had a very good discussion with my agent concerning claims and the process and determining factors in case that need arises. In trying to address the fact that there are so few modified transit buses in existence to be able to determine value at time of loss, especially with how lazy the claims department can be, we came up with a plan to determine a value for my bus. I asked if I needed to provide receipts of what I did to prove increased value (minus some sort of depreciation) but was told that wasn't necessary, although I am still dancing them in case claims thinks otherwise.  Having a policy that states the value is $100,000 is unrealistic and would cause me to overpay, while one at $2000 (which it is set at now, since I paid $2500 for the bus) is too low, and even though I'm being told it doesn't affect what a payout would be, even if it would drop a $25,000 payout to $20,000 I would like to prevent that from happening. My words to my agent was that I wanted to be fair and honest in stating what the value was, and paying a premium that represents that value. I'm not trying to cheat anybody.
I just want to know what my bus is worth.

[chessie4905]

I wouldn't waste money paying collision insurance on your item, just liability, and maybe 100% glass coverage. You will get screwed on a claim anyway.

[RonKStevens]

The additional cost is small enough for me to feel it's worthwhile having.

[richard5933]

I wouldn't waste money paying collision insurance on your item, just liability, and maybe 100% glass coverage. You will get screwed on a claim anyway.

I have to agree with this if you only paid $2500 for the bus. To me, on anything under about $5000 it makes more sense to self-insure. The only coverage I'd carry other than liability might be the glass coverage, and perhaps uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage, as that may help with medical bills in a collision caused by someone else who doesn't have adequate insurance. Otherwise you'll end up having to sue to get your bills paid.

Somehow I assumed that what you were describing was the starting point of a conversion into a motor home. Hadn't dawned on me that you were using the bus as a private bus. That will likely affect the type of coverage you can obtain anyhow.

[usbusin]

I don't think I quite understand; you are not registering it as an RV or motorhome.
You are using this for private use only, not commercial use?  It is registered as a bus? Correct?
You want to use it just as you would a passenger van? 
Does Pennsylvania allow this type of registration for personal and not commercial use?

[RonKStevens]

Gary,
That is correct.
Pennsylvania allows a bus for private use. Registered as an "Omnibus" and has an "OB-" tag instead of a "BA-" tag.
Couldn't register it as a passenger vehicle only because I don't have a back window.

[windtrader]

As the value is quite low, I'll add to the just liability coverage or state value at 2500-3500 as that is what you can easily prove you paid. If ever a total claim is filed, you should be pleased to get that without a huge fight with them. And at such low values, it takes very little to get a total claim. A new set of tires would run that alone should you ever get them all flattened. Something realistic with someone with a knife on an off night. I'd even say a brand new bumper would cost in that range as well.


You're best off partially self-insuring if at all possible, just to avoid the inevitable hassles with processing a claim as it is so far out of their normal processing.