Wiring for 220v or 110v?

[Jcparmley]

I am trying to figure out what I should wire my bus for.  I have a 20kw Powertech that was given to me.  I have a Zantrex Freedom SW3012 inverter.  I will have two minisplit heat pumps.  I have propane Hot Water Heater and 40k LP Furnace.  I'm not sure if I should use those or not.  I have an induction 120v cook-top. 

Here is my questions:  Should I ditch the propane and use electric heat 220v or keep the propane and perhaps use the Webasto for heat? I won't use the bus very often as I am still working with kids in the house.  Should I spend money on expensive batteries or just use the big generator?  I would like to not have to use campgrounds while on the road getting from point A to B.  I plan on building a quiet box for the gen, with remote mount radiator and exhaust out the roof.  My initial thoughts are:  if I have this big generator why spend the money on batteries?  Am I wrong?

[tr206]

Redundancy is a wonderful thing.

[richard5933]

By "wiring for 220v" you're talking about 50-amp service so that you can run actual 220v appliances, then you are limiting the use of those appliances to either when you can run the generator or when you are plugged into 50-amp shore power.

You say that you don't have intention of using campgrounds along the route, but it is nice to have the option when you need it. Lots of places we've been to, especially in a pinch on short notice, had only 30-amp sites available.

But, if you're talking about wiring for 50-amp vs. 30-amp setup while still using only 120v appliances, then definitely that's the way to go.

Even with that huge generator, you'll want to have a house battery bank. Lots of things in the bus will be 12v operated like the water pump, ceiling vent fans, lighting, etc. and it makes no sense to have to run the generator every time you want to wash your hands.

That inverter also won't do you any good without a battery bank. We really enjoy being able to camp silently, especially during seasons when a/c isn't needed. Having a battery bank will allow you to run the microwave or watch TV without the noise/vibration from the generator.

Propane appliance? If they are running well, they're already bought and paid for. I would keep them if you can, or swap them out for diesel fired alternatives if you want to eliminate the propane tank. Having electric as redundancy or for times you're plugged in is good, but it would really suck if you had to run that generator just to take the chill out of the air when a propane furnace or the Webasto could do it in virtual silence.

[Jcparmley]

Richard.  You make great points.  I know very little about electrical wiring, so please forgive me.  I plan on wring the bus for 50 amp. Is it possible to run a some baseboard heaters that are 220v on a 50 amp campground power post? 

In regard to the batteries, I understand that I need some batteries.  What I meant to say was with that big of a generator would I need a expensive, large battery bank?  I know I wasn't very clear on that point.  Anyhow, ultimately I would like to use my baseboard electric heat if possible because I have those heaters and my layout would work with them. Is that possible only when the gen is running or will they work on shore power?   I can use the propane when boondocking.   


quote author=richard5933 link=topic=35943.msg416233#msg416233 date=1641689325]
By "wiring for 220v" you're talking about 50-amp service so that you can run actual 220v appliances, then you are limiting the use of those appliances to either when you can run the generator or when you are plugged into 50-amp shore power.

You say that you don't have intention of using campgrounds along the route, but it is nice to have the option when you need it. Lots of places we've been to, especially in a pinch on short notice, had only 30-amp sites available.

But, if you're talking about wiring for 50-amp vs. 30-amp setup while still using only 120v appliances, then definitely that's the way to go.

Even with that huge generator, you'll want to have a house battery bank. Lots of things in the bus will be 12v operated like the water pump, ceiling vent fans, lighting, etc. and it makes no sense to have to run the generator every time you want to wash your hands.

That inverter also won't do you any good without a battery bank. We really enjoy being able to camp silently, especially during seasons when a/c isn't needed. Having a battery bank will allow you to run the microwave or watch TV without the noise/vibration from the generator.

Propane appliance? If they are running well, they're already bought and paid for. I would keep them if you can, or swap them out for diesel fired alternatives if you want to eliminate the propane tank. Having electric as redundancy or for times you're plugged in is good, but it would really suck if you had to run that generator just to take the chill out of the air when a propane furnace or the Webasto could do it in virtual silence.
[/quote]

[richard5933]

Theoretically, you should be able to run 220v appliances when plugged into a 50-amp pedestal at a campground. Actually, 240v though - that's been the standard for some time now (120v/240v).

I say theoretically because you will occasionally find an improperly wired campground. Proper 50-amp service will have two hot legs, each with 120v and out of phase with each other. If you put a meter between one hot and the neutral you'll get 120v, and between the two hots you'll get 240v.

If your generator has the ability to output the same - two hot legs of 120v each - you could install those 220v baseboard heaters and run them off the generator or a 50-amp shore power connection. But, then you'll be limited to running the only on those two options. Wind up somewhere with only 30-amp connection (which only has one 120v leg) and you'll either be running your generator or burning diesel/propane to make heat.

What about installing 120v baseboard heaters? Not quite as nice as the 220v units, but then you can run them regardless of where you are plugged in.

On our bus we have the propane furnace which can heat the bus by itself. We also have three 1500w electric toe kick heaters and a 120v baseboard heater in the bathroom. Even if we are plugged into a 30-amp pedestal we can run heat off the shore power. Not all at once, but enough to stay warm and not have to run the propane. If we're paying for a campsite I'd rather burn their electric than my propane (or my diesel to run the generator).

Like someone mentioned, it's all about having redundancies. Especially for things like heat. And options - the more options you leave yourself the better. This applies for things like heat, but also for cooking. That induction cooktop is great (we have one too) but it will require electric to cook a meal or even heat water for coffee. That's why we also have a portable propane hob for times we aren't plugged in. Makes it possible to cook a light meal or make coffee without missing a beat or having to tolerate the generator early in the a.m.

In our 4106 we had a 240v cooktop. It was nice, but it was limiting. Couldn't use it unless the generator was running or we were on a 50-amp shore power connection. When we go to the lake we are usually on a 30-amp site, and that means no cooktop since generators are not allowed there.

My opinion is to limit the 240v appliances to those you can easily do without. Of course, if it's something you can easily do without then maybe it's something you don't need to waste space for anyhow.

[dtcerrato]

Redundancy is a wonderful thing.

Ditto Dito Ditto

[buswarrior]

heating with electric is not a winter design goal, if that matters for where you are using, or going to get caught using, the bus.

30 amp power pole can only make 12 283 BTU of heat, typically you'll have a pair of 1500 watt heaters running for only 10 236 BTU, anything else and pop goes the breaker...

electric is a part of your heat layering, not all of it.

Typical RV propane furnace makes 40 000 BTU...

If you could turn all of the generator into electric heat, that's only 68 242 BTU.

A US gallon of Diesel is advertised as being 137 000 BTU.

FWIW

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[dtcerrato]

Layered is a good use of word for heat as BW mentioned. Our heat scheme is redundant and layered.
Basically there's the over the road heat from the engine so that shouldn't be a concern. But being parked is different. We have two LP furnaces totaling just short of 50,000 btu. Than there's two diesel air heaters totalling around 50,000 btu. Then there's the electric resistive heat. We'll never have our total btu outputting heat so there is always reserve and multiple fuel source for emergencies if something were to fail..in an extreme condition could mean life or death. Redundancy is your friend in any & all systems.

[freds]

Very few RV's have actual 220 volt appliances as they would have to fire up the generator when they are in a 30AMP service RV park.

A 50AMP circuit simply means that you don't have to worry about what you switch on.

I recently had my bus on such a circuit when the temperature was down in the low teens and as others mention using layered heat sources it allowed me to do this.

[sledhead]

there are alot  of times we do not want to start the genny so we use the inverter and batteries for power . like making coffee or warming up a muffin in the microwave or using the toaster .
most times it is the early morning and we want to be quiet

keep the propane and use some 120 v cube heaters for the warm up when its not to cold

dave

[Tedsoldbus]

We struggled with the same options. Fancy new solar is all the rage, but a belly full of batteries?? We are not ready for that.
What finally calmed us down was thinking HARD about two things.
1. How we will use the bus.
2. Why tear out what is working well.
I don't know how old your kids are but any "heat" thing needs to be safe if they are still capable of doing a "Mommy said NO the touching that space heater!".
We thought hard about what we have now. Big generator runs on diesel, drinks very little, and we have 200 gallons. The big wires from it go into sidewall behind the generator. I too am not an electrician and if I was, I'm not tearing into that. It makes a little noise, but it works every time (so far).
The 35 gallon propane tank would be equally ugly to remove since it is centered in the belly mostly behind walls.
We are 35 feet with no slides and well insulated so the square footage to maintain heat or A/C is small. We don't go to the polar bear plunge in Minnesota every winter. More likely to go to Florida or Colorado in the fall. We use space heaters when plugged in (as suggested above) and have run the furnace I think 4 times. I am old and like to hear that BTU machine kick on in the night. It gets the bus warm right now. And Rita likes the gas cooktop.
If too hot out, we look for 50 amp or run the generator. We just do. There might be a solar charged system that batteries can keep up with 2 A/C units running, but I'm skeptical.
I think some of it it comes down to personal preference, the places you like to go, and how you will use YOUR bus. For us it boiled down to "Why change what works really well?".
Going about 5 or 6 times a year for 5 to 8 days, do I really care what propane costs?
And two or three ways to do things (redundancy) may keep you from having to cut short a trip you/ wife and the kids were looking forward to.
Best of luck with your project.

[Jim Blackwood]

I look at it this way: What would I do if I got stranded in a blizzard for a week or two? Heat would become not just the main concern but almost the only one. Well, no power pole to hook to so that's out as a primary heat source. Handy for camp sites but still just a convenience. Solar? Not the best if it's overcast but useful nonetheless. I wouldn't want to bet my life on it just yet. Generator? Yeah that's good if noisy but what if I was due for a fuel stop? Batteries, well maybe for a day or so. Main engine, similar to the genny but a slightly deeper reserve. Propane? Yeah that's a good strategy, provided I keep the tank reasonably full and it has sufficient capacity. It won't depend on distance between refueling stops either. And with the gas range I can have two ways to convert propane to heat if I want. Just have to be sure the flames are blue and don't blow out.

Now, how does all that correlate with the bus I have, is the next question. So OK, I have the gas range so propane use is covered, and since ALL of it is converted to heat it is efficient use and a tank will last a long time. Emergency survival mode is good. Have to make sure it can't burn up all the oxygen in the bus but that can be done, and on the fly if needed. A canary might be a plus, I hear there are electronic ones you can buy. The propane furnace just became a convenience rather than a primary emergency need. The bus has an Eiberspacher aux heater. This is easily set up to be primary heat. That leaves convenience heat which can be handled by 2 or 3 low output heat sources such as electric cube heaters or CDH units, dealer's choice, maybe both. This leaves the 240v heaters as a non-entry since having 240v available only means double the number of cube heaters. As far as I am concerned the ONLY use for 240v is AC and I'm working hard to eliminate that requirement as much as possible. I certainly would not bring it back in for heat.

Jim

[windtrader]

I am trying to figure out what I should wire my bus for.  I have a 20kw Powertech that was given to me.  I have a Zantrex Freedom SW3012 inverter.  I will have two minisplit heat pumps.  I have propane Hot Water Heater and 40k LP Furnace.  I'm not sure if I should use those or not.  I have an induction 120v cook-top. 

Here is my questions:  Should I ditch the propane and use electric heat 220v or keep the propane and perhaps use the Webasto for heat? I won't use the bus very often as I am still working with kids in the house.  Should I spend money on expensive batteries or just use the big generator?  I would like to not have to use campgrounds while on the road getting from point A to B.  I plan on building a quiet box for the gen, with remote mount radiator and exhaust out the roof.  My initial thoughts are:  if I have this big generator why spend the money on batteries?  Am I wrong?

Fewer systems are better. don't bother with 220/240, not worth any advantage and from practical POV, it is far less useful. Big batteries are always super when off the pole. More energy allows you to run 120v stuff via inverter for much longer and zero noise.

[Jcparmley]

I think I have my answer.  Thank you all for your input.  I won't use the 220v heaters.  My kids are older so no problem with using cube heaters if necessary.  I also should have mentioned that I live in Wisconsin so heat is something I think about alot.  Although I don't plan to use the bus to much in the winter but you never know.  I also  should have mentioned that I plan to have a small mini wood stove in the front of the bus.  I like the idea of having a wood stove to take the chill off and in an emergency situation it can't be beat.  So the layered approach for my bus is:

Two Minisplit heat pump
Wood Burning Mini Stove in front
40k LP Furnace For Sleeping area
Diesel Air Heaters?

So what is best practices as to wring the bus in regards to setting up the panels, transfer switch, balancing loads, etc?

[Tedsoldbus]

You just said "wiring"? I'm out.
I am lucky if I get both batteries pointed the right way in a flashlight, but some of these guys have done it all. They will help you. They talked me through my inverter problem a year ago.
I think the little wood heater is a neat idea but I don't know where I would put one? We lived in Alaska for 15 years, and I hear Wisconsin is colder so I sympathize with your concerns for HEAT. Heat is good and warmer is better.
I bet our School Bus folks will have better ideas and brand names than us over the road bus guys on a wood heat systems. I hope they see your message. Best of luck. Stay warm.