backing a bus inside the grocery store

[Tedsoldbus]

I am still a new bus guy. Just had a great trip to Indiana to get the Amish to re refrigerate me. Loved the trip but Rita had to stay here. Old parents up the street and she is selling real estate like there is a meteor headed our way and people need a place to hide. We owned 4 RVs in our time. Biggest was a 38 foot Allegro bus. I could pretty quickly drive all of them. Even the 38 footer seemed not that hard if I payed attention to tailswing.
Our 35 foot Prevost, even with no tag wheel, still stymies me about every other time I try to back it. It is shorter than the Allegro but I am convinced since it is a real bus the front wheels are further from the back wheels than anything we have owned. Or perhaps it is just that the back wheels are closer to the back of the vehicle. I have to re-do my backing up turns way too often.
I flew airplanes for the military and learned many things in a simulator. So to practice backing the bus, I started pushing the shopping cart backwards in the grocery store as it seems simulate my luck with backing the bus.
I think it is helping. But since I get way too many people looking at what I am doing, wondering how drunk I must be,  Rita makes me walk 10 feet behind her and I have to pick up what she selects off the floor.....
Maybe another trip to Walmart parking lot with orange cones early Sunday morning is a better idea.....

[buswarrior]

Nothing is going to fix it, except practice.

You'll be subconsciously aiming one of your earlier vehicles. You have to beat that out of yourself, one back at a time.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[Fred Mc]

Hook up a small utility trailer and try backing up with that. The short tongue on the trailer
will really accentuate the movements of the bus.

[RJ]

Maybe another trip to Walmart parking lot with orange cones early Sunday morning is a better idea.....

Ted -

I second the early Sunday morning, but not at Walmart. I suggest you find a local industrial park to practice in, because most are deserted on weekends. Try driving down a street, then doing a three-point U-turn by backing into a driveway with appropriate clearances. Work on these from both sides - Right (harder) and Left (just as hard.)  In the same area, try parallel parking, too, using the cones to simulate parked vehicles you have to park between. Mark off a 55' space first (bus length plus 20'), then, as you get better, tighten it up to 45' (bus length plus 10', which is the goal.) Oh, and you lose points if you curb the tires! You also lose points if you turn on your back-up camera - you should learn how to do this with just your exterior mirrors.

Another location on an early Sunday morning would be a nearby high school or college parking lot, as they're usually deserted during that time frame.

Buswarrior will second me on this, but spending some time perfecting your RH turn technique is also good practice. Ideally, when making a RH turn in city environments, you want to set the coach up 18" - 36" away from and parallel to the curb - this prevents "right hand squeeze" plays. You also DO NOT want to swing to the left before starting to turn right - that panics traffic on your left, quite possibly to the point of creating a fender-bender.

Once set up the proper distance from the curb, pull straight into the intersection until the curb of the street you're turning onto intersects visually with the center-line of the front axle. Then, and only then, should you start turning the wheel, keeping a sharp eye on the RH mirror to watch the rear axle's movement, as well as watching traffic on the street you're turning onto. Obviously STOP if traffic is such that you can't make the turn without encroaching into their lane! The goal here is to have the outside dual track around the corner right on the interface between the asphalt pavement and cement curbing. Keep practicing until you can make that turn with the "interface tracking" of the rear axle consistant, time and time again. If you have one locally, go watch 40' city transit buses make these turns to get better visuals - or simply have Rita take video with a cell phone!

In essence, what you're doing is learning to control the rear axle's placement in all these exercises, whether backing or turning.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[richard5933]

What helped me lots when learning to back a bus was getting a good visual clue on where the pivot point of the bus was. There has to be something you can see in the mirrors on the side of the bus which tells you the exact point your bus pivots - which on a single axle bus is the center of the rear axle. You can use a magnet or tape to mark the spot on the side of the bus if it's difficult to see the rear tires touching the pavement in the mirrors.

If you're back up and the pivot point has not clear the obstacle before you turn, you will hit it. Curb, mail box, parked car, etc. Makes no difference - your pivot point will need to be past it.

The other thing I had to learn was tail swing and nose swing. Both ends hang out over the axles, and both ends will swing wide on a turn.

[Tedsoldbus]

Thanks guys. Will try some of that and the high school lot a great idea. I have backed boat trailers all my life. Not the same. I am lucky to have the pivot point in that I have big rubber fender skirts. That's where the rear wheel is ted!
I know the basics but continually do not pull far enough forward before backing into a driveway or parking spot. I can do it. Just shouldn't have to still re do it. I think it is the front wheel being so close to the front and same with the back wheel. I have no trouble with left turns. Still have to watch the rear tire on right turns which surprises me since this is only 35 feet. But, that back wheel is way back there.
Very good advice and thank you all. Will read it again before Rita and I give it another shot this weekend.
Covid be damned. We still take short trips or maybe even a half day drive twice a month. Love driving it!!!!

[buswarrior]

"Still have to watch right turns" ...

So, you plan to stop watching?

The bus driver who stops watching, is preparing for their next side swipe collision...

The bad dog only chews shoes when no one is looking...

The @$# of that bus is one very bad dog...

Watch it start, watch it turn, watch it finish.

So your next post isn't about sourcing baggage doors...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[richard5933]

"Still have to watch right turns" ...

So, you plan to stop watching?

The bus driver who stops watching, is preparing for their next side swipe collision...

The bad dog only chews shoes when no one is looking...

The @$# of that bus is one very bad dog...

Watch it start, watch it turn, watch it finish.

So your next post isn't about sourcing baggage doors...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Great advice. One of my CDL instructors used to scold anyone that mentioned 'looking' in the mirrors. He wanted us to watch, and to continue to watch the tires walk around the corner without touching anything.

Of course watching the rear tires and also watching around the front of the bus required lots of head turning. He told us if our necks weren't sore from pivoting so much we weren't doing it right.

[chessie4905]

First thing before starting is to take the time to correct any deficiency of mirror view. Adjust them if needed. Don't just drive it that way.

[Van]

The boat ramp might be a good place to hone your skills
  https://youtu.be/2oq0YNo02KM

[buswarrior]

First thing before starting is to take the time to correct any deficiency of mirror view. Adjust them if needed. Don't just drive it that way.

Yes, but you'd be amazed at what peeps think is adequate...

Typically aimed too high, and with too much mirror face wasted looking at the bus. Many mirror arms wildly inboard or outboard of the sideline of the coach.

Arms should be set so that looking from the rear down the side of the coach, the edge of the mirror is in line with the coach body, just out there, no gap, no sticking out, but not hidden around the front.

"Down and out" is the strategy for setting the mirror faces, with a small sliver of the bus having to be visible for reference, maybe a quarter to a third of the face may have to be sacrificed, depending on the curvature of the faces, to accomplish the rest of what you need to see. Convex mirror should be seeing the ground as near to the front as you can still see the horizon, and as far out while still seeing the rear tire/ground interface for your range of upper body movement while steering.

Set the flat mirrors to see down the road in the top edge, and the rest is whatever you get.

Convex mirror is your first look, unfortunately, our nature is to look in the flat mirror first, as it isn't distorted. The brain must be trained to look at the convex as the primary hunger for a view. Wide field of view mimics our peripheral vision, which is what picks up the danger. Focal vision and the flat mirror lets us pick out the finer details.

Some convex mirrors are trash, the curvature is not suitable for the bus. They come in different curvatures, buy new ones, if yours are crap.

Mumble to yourself "look in the convex first" and do it.

If it helps, figure this: the flat mirror lets you watch the collision happen, the convex mirror gives you a chance to do something about it. Which would you prefer?

Down and out.
Convex first.
Watch the bad dog.

How are you going to hit anything with the side of the bus now?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[chessie4905]

Makes me think of a former supervisor/ boss. Maybe it was male menopause or something but decided he wanted to drive charter bus runs for local bus company. One of his first runs, he creased a baggage door. He didn't get fired but never damaged one again. Funny memory. He came in to work one Monday just after hired. He was at bus yard doing the walk around after starting coach. Came back to door and leaned in to do something. Air was up and doors went shut pinning him fast. He yelled, but no one around in the yard. Finally he forced himself from between doors. His crisp white shirt was now black on front from door rubber. 😆

[Tedsoldbus]

Glad my door can't eat me. Funny story. I had to adjust the passenger mirror a few times but both are good now. I do watch mirrors all the way around the turns, with quick looks forward, but I am glad I am a bit older and more patient than when I put a few scratches in our RVs over the years. All good advice for a new (had it a year now) bus owner. They do drive very different than an RV. I have 8 thousand ding free miles so far. I know most crunches happen at very slow speed, so will try to remember what you guys have said here.
Taking it for 100 gallons of fuel in the morning. Don't want air in the tank as it gets colder here in Georgia. I came home from Indiana tired and did not fuel it before parking at the house. Next trip, the beloved Costco run next week to re-supply our five 80 year old neighbors. Fun to open the bay doors and fill them up!
Best regards, Ted