Speaking of Green new deal and our buses

[CrabbyMilton]

I'd be all in on the nuclear power option if it weren't for the simple fact that when it fails (and it does) the amount of destruction that occurs is beyond catastrophic.

Compare the potential for disaster in the two options you mentioned - rolling out EVs before they're fully proven and nuclear power. If the EVs fail, even totally, the amount of subsequent damage can be handled and won't cause any long-lasting problems. Contrast that with the results of what happens when a nuclear facility has a problem - you don't have to look too far back in history, only a few years to Fukashima. If you want another example, go to Chernoble. Both situations will have long-lasting effects and danger. We narrowly escaped a similar situation at Three Mile Island, and I suspect that single event is what put the kibosh on the growth of nuclear power in the US.

Unfortunately there has not been the kind of advancements in nuclear power plant safety that are able to make enough people feel safe having new facilities built. Back in the 70s there was lots of talk of moving from nuclear fission to nuclear fusion, but I haven't heard much about this recently.

True Richard. As you correctly stated, there has not been a nuclear mishap here since THREE MILE ISLAND. Sadly, that was over 40 years ago and nobody wants to touch nuclear power either that or it's downplayed and mocked. Still we'll need more powerplants with more EV's being built so this needs to be looked at along with other methods.

[sledhead]

I have a diesel suv that is amazing on fuel and has a ton of power

but I am trading it in on a gas suv because of the design problem with the particulate filter . at 60k klm the car went into limp mode and lucky I had extended warranty the repair was fixed at a so called cost of $6200 but that included other stuff like censers . 

there are not very many diesel cars or suvs made anymore other then pick up trucks . everything has been changed over to gas because of all the regulations on the smaller diesel's and the constant change for lower emission's .

the same thing is happening to the large trucks that deliver everything to us but because of the power needed to move a 52' trailer there is not any other choice

there has to be a better way to reduce the emissions then a particulate filter that is doomed to fail in such a short time or find a better system for replacement or a real cleaning system .

how many diesel pick up trucks are on the road that have removed the filter and all that is involved with it ( def ) systems as well .

there has to be a better way as my diesel suv is amazing on power and fuel efficiency compared to the 6 year newer replacement will be 

dave

[chessie4905]

You ever get behind a semi in the regen mode? So it that calculated into the total emissions the engine is rated for?
Yeah we have pinwheels on several of the mountain tops around here. Activists claim they kill thousands of birds. Who knows? Seems there are activists for anything anymore.

[Jim Blackwood]

So that cord for the 5 minute charge is a big as your ankle right? It's either that or go up into the Kill-a-volt range to transfer enough power. Either way you have problems. Mine more copper or make more insulation, neither of which is eco friendly. Maybe those new diamond batteries would do the trick.

But still, we're 10 to 20 years away from any sort of a practical solution being adopted widely enough to trickle down to primary transportation. Then another 20 years on top of that before used buses become affordable. (You did notice the trend towards longer service life I'm sure. My "shell" is 25 years old and it is relatively new.)

So for us the bottom line is that we will be pretty far into the long sleep before any of this happens and wishful thinking isn't going to bring it any faster.

Jim

[Nova Eona]

Some kind of battery-swapping tech could become the standard as well.  Why bother with lengthy recharge times and high-current transfers on the go if the battery modules themselves could be swapped out for a charged set?  Future EV batteries could be like our 20# propane tanks today - top it up or swap out for a fresh one, whichever makes more sense at the time.

[luvrbus]

Some kind of battery-swapping tech could become the standard as well.  Why bother with lengthy recharge times and high-current transfers on the go if the battery modules themselves could be swapped out for a charged set?  Future EV batteries could be like our 20# propane tanks today - top it up or swap out for a fresh one, whichever makes more sense at the time.

That would be chore on the electric buses the complete roof is one gigantic battery

[CrabbyMilton]

Exactly. At some point there would be a smaller auxiliary battery that you could snap in to get you to a charging station if the main battery craps out.

[benherman1]

That would be chore on the electric buses the complete roof is one gigantic battery

Whats the reasoning for putting it in the roof? you'd think all that weight would be safer under the floor.

As far as battery swapping goes I'm sure any bus built with the intention of swapping batteries would use a different place to put them.

[Jim Blackwood]

Just think about this a minute. Who is gonna pay to keep that system going? Already you have a certification issue with propane tanks. Meaning a premium from Blue Rhino to pay for the ones that go out of cert. If you mess up and get stuck with one? Better have a friendly (or dumb) guy to swap it to. If that's an expensive battery pack it's gonna be SO much worse. And they will go downhill fast without an owner to keep them nice so you'll have to keep them hidden 'cause the ugly ones were all you could get. And of course there won't be that much uniformity. I don't see that as really viable.

Jim

[richard5933]

Some kind of battery-swapping tech could become the standard as well.  Why bother with lengthy recharge times and high-current transfers on the go if the battery modules themselves could be swapped out for a charged set?  Future EV batteries could be like our 20# propane tanks today - top it up or swap out for a fresh one, whichever makes more sense at the time.

I've long thought that this would be a way to go on EVs. It could even be a robotic swap if the batteries were mounted under the vehicle - drive over the swap out station and it pulls the battery modules. Larger vehicle? More modules tucked underneath.

[Nova Eona]

Just think about this a minute. Who is gonna pay to keep that system going? Already you have a certification issue with propane tanks. Meaning a premium from Blue Rhino to pay for the ones that go out of cert. If you mess up and get stuck with one? Better have a friendly (or dumb) guy to swap it to. If that's an expensive battery pack it's gonna be SO much worse. And they will go downhill fast without an owner to keep them nice so you'll have to keep them hidden 'cause the ugly ones were all you could get. And of course there won't be that much uniformity. I don't see that as really viable.

Same way we handle the 20#ers now - if yours is too worn or damaged to take an adequate charge, you swap it out at a local station for a fresher one, and the places that sell and recharge these units take the bad one for recycling - last thing we want is a bunch of old batteries cluttering the countryside, so reclamation infrastructure would be necessary as well as the regulations to ensure people aren't getting bad units slotted in their EVs.  This kind of system would rely on a cheaper and more durable battery capable of self-monitoring, so it's not going to happen tomorrow, but the tech is getting there.

[belfert]

Obviously I was being sarcastic. But the EV zealots want to roll them out when they aren't proven just yet. Perhaps we would be further ahead if people weren't so fearful of nuclear power which is clean and yes safe. Wind and solar are just supplemental. As for buses, I have to wonder how the J4500 EV version will work on a long charter trip with the heat or AC going full blast depending on the region you are going thru. They ought to offer a small gasoline or diesel generator just in case. The EV school and transit buses may work for short trips around town but it's the longer distance trips that would concern me. The tour operator will have to plan carefully to make sure there are enough charging stations at the hotels. "Oh sorry it doesn't work but my cousin Floyd will pull you folks to the next town with his tractor."

The initial MCI electric buses are not for long trips.  The range is short enough that they'll really only be for day trips in the immediate area.  They will have to go back to the garage for charging, or if they do go out of town they will have to find a bus company that has the required charger.  You aren't going to charge these buses from a standard 110 volt outlet.  They probably won't charge from a standard EV charger either due to the size of the battery pack.

The initial market for these buses is going to mostly be contracts or places that require electric buses.  I can see these being used for shuttles in national parks where the Parks service requires only electric buses to cut down on pollution.  Or, to provide guided tours in areas where diesel buses are no longer allowed.

Progressive cities may very well say that any charter bus trips have to be in electric buses where distance allows.

[Jim Blackwood]

but the tech is getting there.

No, it really isn't. When was the last time you saw a gas station equipped with a forklift? Because that's what it's going to take to move those heavy batteries around. And who pays for the bumpage damage? Otherwise you are talking about some very specialized automated equipment and that doesn't come cheap. Each unit will cost more than the car it is meant to service and it will have to be specially built for the particular vehicle it is meant to service, so you've just doubled the cost in infrastructure alone, to say nothing of the high voltage 3 phase power lines required to each station for recharging.

I'm not saying these things can't be done, but this pie-in-the-sky attitude that ignores the realities of the situation is very unrealistic. The fact is it WILL take a long time, and it WILL take a LOT of money. The question that should be asked is this: Do you really want to be the one paying for all of that?

Jim

[Nova Eona]

No, it really isn't. When was the last time you saw a gas station equipped with a forklift? Because that's what it's going to take to move those heavy batteries around. And who pays for the bumpage damage? Otherwise you are talking about some very specialized automated equipment and that doesn't come cheap. Each unit will cost more than the car it is meant to service and it will have to be specially built for the particular vehicle it is meant to service, so you've just doubled the cost in infrastructure alone, to say nothing of the high voltage 3 phase power lines required to each station for recharging.

I'm not saying these things can't be done, but this pie-in-the-sky attitude that ignores the realities of the situation is very unrealistic. The fact is it WILL take a long time, and it WILL take a LOT of money. The question that should be asked is this: Do you really want to be the one paying for all of that?

Nothing is without cost, and that includes keeping things just as they are today.  From your description it sounds like you're picturing building this infrastructure as quickly, cheaply, and sloppily as possible using modern technology - why would a forklift be used instead of dedicated and automated equipment?  Tesla has already demoed an automatic charging cable concept which plugs itself in, how far-fetched is it to picture a computer-controlled trolley which guides standardized battery modules in and out of your chosen vehicle?

Consider back at the advent of the automobile.  At the time, horses were the chosen method of conveyance for anyone seriously crossing the distance, as early cars were hobbled by high cost, reliability, and range issues.  Who, they would ask, is going to go to all the carriage houses and install huge tanks of flammable liquids to keep these automobiles topped up?  Who is going to refill them, and who will pay for it all?  Who will be there to decant the gasoline into smaller containers, then pour that into the vehicles?

No one is saying we should switch to EVs overnight, I'd be the first to admit that we don't have the technology, let alone the infrastructure, for that.  Yet.  But to pretend that the market and the technology aren't shifting in that direction is to adopt the same bullheaded attitude that insisted the automobile would never supplant the horse.

[richard5933]

I'll take it a step further. Rather than dig a big hole in the ground to bury underground fuel tanks, bury a robotic battery swap system. Pull over the swapping pit, the machine reads the code from the bottom of your car and then proceeds with the necessary battery swap. It's well within current tech to have the robotic system position itself precisely under the car, perform an inspection, do the swap, and put your spent batteries back in the queue for charging.

...I'm not saying these things can't be done, but this pie-in-the-sky attitude that ignores the realities of the situation is very unrealistic. The fact is it WILL take a long time, and it WILL take a LOT of money. The question that should be asked is this: Do you really want to be the one paying for all of that?

Jim

Kind of surprised to hear this kind of response from you Jim - after all, aren't you the guy building a leveling system for his bus which is heads and shoulders more complicated than any other on the road? Same for your a/c system design. I really expected you to be more in line with the dreamer than the naysayers on this one.

Technology in the robotic assembly world is far advanced, and putting together a modular system of battery swap stations is well within current capability.