Speaking of Green new deal and our buses

[tr206]

So how long before we can't afford to drive our buses? i.e. carbon tax, fuel tax, fuel prices any idea? Not trying to be a Debbie downer just a realist.

[richard5933]

This conversation has been going on for quite some time, and I'd guess that the short answer is, "we don't know."

Fuel costs a few years ago did put lots of buses off the road, at least for a while, but that had nothing to do with any green energy policy. It was simply the way the fuel prices can become volatile at times and spike as a result of other things in the economy or world news.

California has probably advanced the furthest along the lines of a 'green new deal', but even there the CARB rules are not affecting privately owned buses registered as motor homes. At least not yet.

My two cents' worth, not that it affects the outcome, is that there are so few of us with old buses on the road we're just not a big part of the equation right now. There may be a time when we are, but not for the immediate future.

On a related note, I was watching a YouTube channel yesterday from a company retrofitting classic cars (particularly VW micro buses and European sports cars) to electric operation. It was truly amazing to watch the increase in performance and reliability in these old beasts once the EV conversion was complete.

I'm hopeful that by the time our buses are legislated off the road, either through direct legislation or the limited availability of diesel, there will be options available for EV retrofit which will be practical. As it stands now, there are many ways to convert a bus into an EV but none are truly viable for long-distance travel. The problem seems to be the availability of charging stations capable of recharging a bus or truck, the range provided,  and the time it takes to recharge. Hopefully the technology will continue to develop at an exponential rate and a practical EV retrofit will become available for us.

When range issues and recharge issues are solved, I'd be interested in doing an EV conversion. That would likely keep my bus on the road as long as I'm alive. Of course, even with the retrofit I'll still have to deal with constantly tracking down air leaks.

[buswarrior]

Ha!

Airleaks will have to be tracked down, the compressor run time will shorten up the range!!!

Finally a way to "encourage" the leaky teakies to do some air system maintenance?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[CrabbyMilton]

Vehicles in general will be more costly to operate. But don't worry, all electric vehicles will make it all better. It won't cost anything since electricity just comes out of the wall.

[Nova Eona]

Man, no love for green technology this week!  As has been said before, we're too small a group to legislate over, and most of the regulations are focused on commercial operators since they are the major pollution contributors.  Not to say we can't get caught up in something, but we don't really have a target on our backs.

Electric vehicles are rapidly approaching a point of price parity with ICE in many respects - I think that simple economics will drive more people towards them as time goes on, it's not going to take any big moves from whatever the Green New Deal actually ends up being.

Personally, I'd love to get my hands on an electric portal axle or two someday and turn my bus into a diesel-electric hybrid until the battery tech catches up, that'd be a little nicer to the environment and a lot of fun to drive.

[richard5933]

Thinking outside the box here...

On a bus with a tag axle, what if the tag were converted into an electrically-driven axle? Would make an interesting hybrid vehicle, for sure. Choose between the near-silent operation of the electric axle when it's appropriate, and choose the diesel driven axle for times it's appropriate.

Some modifications will need to be made to accommodate lubrication on the diesel system while the electric is in use as well as compressor operation, but it's certainly within the realm of possible.

Add regen braking on the tag's system and you'd be able to keep the batteries charged while cruising down the highway at no cost, and you'd get free braking without having to even use the Jakes.

[Jim Blackwood]

"When range issues and recharge issues are solved"

Don't hold your breath on this one. In the early days of the Model T, electric cars were a contender but had a problem with range and recharge time. So nothing has changed. It isn't a problem that is going to be solved overnight. Very smart people have been working on it for over a hundred years. So far 3 generations haven't solved it and it's pretty unlikely we will live to see the solution.

Jim

[Lin]

There are several quick charge technologies that seem to be proven.  One I read about would take 5 minutes to get to full charge.  Ten years down the line may look seriously different.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4508314/Electric-car-battery-fully-charged-FIVE-minutes.html

[CrabbyMilton]

It'll be interesting to see how MCI's new all electric J4500 will work out. I wish them well on that but time will indeed tell. Same with a three major school bus builders offering all electric versions now.

[Lin]

There will be more required than merely having the tech and stations.  If a significant amount of vehicles were to switch to electricity, we are going to need a significant amount of more electricity too.

While people would say it would be wonderful if cars could run on water, but I wonder where Los Angeles is going to get all that extra water. 

[richard5933]

"When range issues and recharge issues are solved"

Don't hold your breath on this one. In the early days of the Model T, electric cars were a contender but had a problem with range and recharge time. So nothing has changed. It isn't a problem that is going to be solved overnight. Very smart people have been working on it for over a hundred years. So far 3 generations haven't solved it and it's pretty unlikely we will live to see the solution.

Jim

Tech like this can struggle for decades and then suddenly take off and grow wings. Pun intended, but just look at how long it took for the first successful plane to take flight, and then compare that to how much longer it took to get a man on the moon.

[windtrader]

So how long before we can't afford to drive our buses? i.e. carbon tax, fuel tax, fuel prices any idea? Not trying to be a Debbie downer just a realist.

Some would argue many can not afford to fuel buses today. I have some change in my pocket but pull out several hundred dollars go gas up still hurts. Looking forward, diesel will be available for quite some time, even with the push to electricity.
Our buses will never be directly targeted as gross polluters in the future; however, could a larger net get us caught up in a widespread attempt to kill all diesel on the road, maybe. Availability of diesel can only decline as the years go on. No longer is diesel being pushed and electrical vehicles are no longer the future, it's only a question of time for majority adoption.
Maybe others can chime in for specific examples but it would be rare if even happened that a car that was in production was outright removed off the road. Maybe a model was discontinued due to inherent safety flaws but I think old ones were not crushed. Thinking of the gas tanks behind truck bench seats. Did those get totally banned? That would be a rare instance if that even happened.
Most bus owners are going to be in the ground by the time any of this would become law anyway.

[lvmci]

This company may have solved one of the hardest problems in clean energy
The "hydrogen economy" may be a thing after all.
By David Roberts  Feb 16, 2018, 9:00am EST
A way to clean up diesel engines for a market that badly needs one

"The first product, scheduled to debut in April, is the key to everything else."

It's called Internal Combustion Assistance (ICA), a modification to internal combustion engines that enables them to substantially increase their fuel efficiency and reduce their air pollution. It does this by adding tiny amounts of gaseous hydrogen and oxygen to the fuel just before it is combusted in the engine's cylinders. The HHO mix lends intensity to the combustion, allowing the fuel to burn more completely, generating more oomph and less pollution.

The ICA system can technically work on any internal combustion engine, but to begin with, HyTech is targeting the dirtiest engines with the fastest return on investment, namely diesel engines — in vehicles like trucks, delivery vans, buses, and forklifts, but also big, stationary diesel generators, which still provide backup (and even primary) power by the millions across the world..."

"...HyTech's offer to that market is pretty remarkable: it claims that its ICA can improve the fuel efficiency of a diesel engine between 20 and 30 percent, reduce particulate matter by 85 percent, and reduce NOx by between 50 and 90 percent. In concert with a DPF and some SCR, it can yield a diesel engine that meets official California standards for an "ultra-low emissions" vehicle.
The cost of transforming a dirty diesel engine to a relatively clean one: around $10,000 installed, which HyTech estimates will pay itself back in nine months through avoided fuel and maintenance costs.

[freds]

We will probably be using classic licensing as a loophole..

[tr206]

I guess if your young and/or wealthy this is a non issue. But for the Joe six pack's or old retiree who love their old diesels which burn the most efficient and cheapest fuel to date just saying the future may not look to good for us. For you electric bus opponents how much will it cost you to plug in your bus after a 500 mile day running your electric a/c or electric heaters, electric frig, electric water heater, electric cook stove, etc not to mention pulling mountain passes and/or bucking a headwind are you going to be under 65' legal length in a lot of states pulling that battery trailer plus your towed vehicle? Maybe over 65' will be accepted if your all electric who knows.