Used coach buyers remorse...

someguy · August 12, 2020, 09:46:02 AM

Here is an interesting used coach purchase experience shared on Youtube.

https://youtu.be/GYw5gcq7R7w?t=445

If you go through his channel, he has rebuilt just about every part of the bus.
https://www.youtube.com/c/RVChiefPrevost/videos

Justification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjSADEcTwb0

His was an American Country Coach on a Prevost chassis.

luvrbus · August 12, 2020, 10:00:27 AM

People get excited about a passenger seated bus with 5 to 700,000 miles on the clock to ,98.9 % of the time a bus with over a million miles on it revenue service is in a lot better shape because the operator has maintained the bus where the one with 500,000 are a repo or the operator got word he going to need 40 to 60k worth of work for it so he dumps it,there are exceptions but very rare.You can spend a ton of money on low miles RV conversion buses too,About any tour bus is going to average 60 to 80K or more in miles a years when you look to buy a 20 year old tour bus showing 500k miles you need to pay attention lol I just looked at one for a guy in Idaho

Jim Blackwood · August 12, 2020, 10:32:46 AM

My 1/2M mile bus was a loaner to a university band and it was well maintained and in good overall condition. There were a few oddities about it, racks had been installed below the overhead bins, (extra work to remove) but they held 10 ea. 900W inverters which was a plus. Cabinets had been installed in the rear and the bays (more work to remove) but the lavatory had been removed already which was a plus. It turned out I was dealing with an honest company VP whose job it was to dispose of the donor's old fleet vehicles. He had no real incentive to falsify the vehicle condition. Those kind of situations may be uncommon, but they do exist. The resale value of the bus was essentially destroyed because of the non-standard configuration and the truth is it was undoubtedly worth more as salvage as the engine only had 135K miles on it. However, as a base for an RV conversion it was ideal. Posted on ebay it never met the minimum and in fact never got to $5000. I contacted the seller and offered $5250 and we made a deal.

There are several things that will have to be seen to. For instance there is a crack in the driver's windshield. The OTR has a slow leak (but it uses r134 which is good), the Eiberspacher aux heater didn't run at first. (bad timer) It has a few dings. BUT, it has alcoa wheels, usable tires, good batteries and seems in reasonable shape otherwise.

So, you can invest the time or you can invest the money. It depends on which you can spare.

Jim

someguy · August 12, 2020, 10:35:21 AM

Quote from: luvrbus on August 12, 2020, 10:00:27 AM
About any tour bus is going to average 60 to 80K or more in miles a years when you look to buy a 20 year old tour bus showing 500k miles you need to pay attention lol I just looked at one for a guy in Idaho

The ECM will reveal the real mileage on the bus.

buswarrior · August 12, 2020, 11:19:17 AM

And if the ECM is a replacement?

These are shark infested waters...

Swim if you dare?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

benherman1 · August 12, 2020, 11:36:56 AM

Does mileage really mean anything over a million or so? I figure at that point most everything that has to be maintained will have been (or not). after that the level of care makes a considerably larger difference. My bus was in service from 1964 to 2000 and has probably gone through an engine or three. In my case it looks like up until the end of its service life it was pretty well maintained. Unfortunately the people who owned it afterwards seem to have just parked it and lived in it. Now its up to me to replace all the rubber bits.

I'd bet the region the vehicle was operated makes a considerably larger difference. After 36 years in service I still have an in tact air frame and most of my metal framework is in decent shape.

neoneddy · August 12, 2020, 11:58:44 AM

I miss the Chief .. not much from him on the youtube anymore.

I've thought similar, Could I buy a better coach for the $30k or so I have into mine?... maybe, especially now. Ultimately I don't regret it. We needed 4 bunks, I think if we could have found a good deal on an entertainer, we could have converted that easier than a seated coach or a typical RV setup for a couple.

No replacing the experience or memories. I don't think this will be my last coach, I know so much more now having built and rebuilt so much than I ever could of otherwise.

someguy · August 12, 2020, 12:21:16 PM

I'm kinda of the same opinion that there isn't much to be afraid of with a high mileage coach.

I would not be afraid of or mind doing an inframe rebuild on a Series 60. Hardest part would be getting the engine cradle in and out of the coach. Kinda need a forklift or at least a good crane for that. Once you had the engine cradle out, sitting on some stands, it would be easier to do the inframe than doing it in a truck.

Inframe kits aren't cheap, but they won't break the bank either. A big part of the cost of doing a rebuild is the labor a shop charges. Series 60 parts are pretty reasonable. It costs a lot less to rebuild a Series 60 than it does a 6.0 or 6.4L Powerstroke or even a Sprinter engine.

The transmission is the big apprehension for me. If I had a bus with a blown B500, I'd probably drop an Ultrashift 2 into it. Or maybe a 12 speed ZF. Or one of the new Endurant automated transmissions, but I think it takes a lot to make one of those work. I doubt the B500 would go back in. If I wasn't concerned about someone else driving it or selling it someday, I'd probably drop a Super 10 manual transmission into it.

Brakes, airbags, suspension bushings are normal wear items. They will need doing no matter what.

Rust is the thing I want to avoid most, followed by extensive body work.

So the question becomes... if the quality of the work on a converted coach isn't that great and you have to redo a lot of or all of the work anyway... what is the advantage of getting a converted coach ? Why not get a seated coach and do it right ?

richard5933 · August 12, 2020, 12:38:08 PM

Quote from: someguy on August 12, 2020, 12:21:16 PM
...So the question becomes... if the quality of the work on a converted coach isn't that great and you have to redo a lot of or all of the work anyway... what is the advantage of getting a converted coach ? Why not get a seated coach and do it right ?

Then find a converted coach with a verifiable/known quality. They are out there.

Lots of things wear out or fatigue on a bus (or any vehicle) once the miles get as high as you're talking about. Will they continue to work as a bus conversion? Probably, but I'm thinking it may not be worth the time/effort/expense necessary to get things where you want them.

Our first bus (a 1964 GM 4106) was in pretty good condition for an existing conversion. We paid $14,000 for it and planned to spend a few years fixing things up and updating the interior. Some hidden problems that had to be addressed ended up costing quite a bit right away to make it safe to operate and useful for camping.

Our current bus (a 1974 GMC 4108a) we bought a few years ago with only 41,000 original miles. There were problems, largely due to lack of use. Nothing really catastrophic, more just major annoyances. We paid considerably more for this bus, but it was largely usable from day one after a few plumbing and electrical issues were dealt with. No matter the problems we've had to repair on this bus, it will likely be on the road longer than any late model bus with 500k - 750k (or more) miles when converted.

There are some rare high-mileage buses like Jim's out there in good condition because they have been maintained. There are also some great existing conversions out there which have been well-maintained and which have far fewer miles on them. It all depends on what you're looking for and how hard you're willing to hunt.

someguy · August 12, 2020, 01:02:07 PM

Quote from: richard5933 on August 12, 2020, 12:38:08 PM
Then find a converted coach with a verifiable/known quality. They are out there.

I'm looking for a 2004 or newer Prevost H3-45 or a 2006 or newer MCI E/J4500 with a slide. What do you think a known quality one of those sells for ? A mint. Everyone wants one of those.

And Chief's conversion was done by American Country Couch. It's not like that isn't a reputable name. And if we are going to say ACC isn't reputable, then which one is, short of Marathon, etc ?

I'm going to end up buying a seated bus and doing my own conversion.

richard5933 · August 12, 2020, 01:20:29 PM

Not exactly sure why Chief did a total gut job on his. I didn't watch everything but it sounded like he was chasing water leaks.

Regardless, when I say verifiable/known quality I'm not talking about any particular builder or company. I'm talking about things like having as complete a maintenance record as possible, having a full inspection done with the bus on a lift, etc.

If you're looking specifically for a late model Prevost of MCI with a slide, then you already know that you are either going to pay now or you're going to pay later. But, you're going to pay. Could be with money, could be with time, could be with effort. Could be all of the above. Guess which way one goes depends on his priorities and available resources. For me, part of the equation is also deciding whether I can keep interest long enough to follow the chosen path and do a good job with it.

someguy · August 12, 2020, 03:12:24 PM

Quote from: richard5933 on August 12, 2020, 01:20:29 PM
Not exactly why Chief did a total gut job on his. I didn't watch everything but it sounded like he was chasing water leaks.

And he didn't like the layout. And the Heart inverters were old and inefficient. And the battery system wasn't up to the task. And... He could have easily fixed the water leaks without completely tearing apart the coach.

His conversion is a late 90s. A lot has changed in RV tech since then.

lostagain · August 12, 2020, 05:11:03 PM

I thought an inframe was a rebuild with engine in the bus. Once it is out on the shop floor, it is an out of frame rebuild. Anyway, pulling the engine out of the bus isn't difficult: you need a cart to pull it onto with a come-along. Or a pallet jack or skid steer or fork lift. A shop crane is good to pull the transmission off the engine.

Speaking of transmissions, what's wrong with the Allison B500? It is very common in buses from the 90s up to today. It is up to it's 5th generation now. It is a very good transmission. Smooth shifting. Just put is in D and go. It always knows what gear to be in, up or down.

You will be much farther ahead getting into an already converted coach. Keep looking: you will find one that is close to what you need. It could be a MCi, a Prevost, or a high end motor home.

You are overthinking the whole thing. You are trying to re invent the basic motor home. Just go find a nice one, and enjoy camping...

luvrbus · August 12, 2020, 06:23:03 PM

The 5th generation B500 controls the engine it tells the engine what it wants or needs they are amazing,my 4060 the only way I know it shifts is watching it change gears on the SilverLeaf.I never heard of or saw a American Country Coach conversion

Jim Blackwood · August 12, 2020, 08:41:40 PM

It's good to gain as much knowledge as possible before any kind of a conversion, bus-to-RV as much as any, and there are a very wide range of systems involved. Much more so than with say something like an engine conversion. But you have to understand that it can all get way out of hand all too quickly and the scope can balloon out way beyond what you would expect any average person to deal with. For that reason, for someone who has no prior experience with this sort of thing it's a very good strategy to do everything possible to limit the scope of the job initially and then consider coming back to certain areas later if needed. Not only does this simplify the job but you may find the extra enhancements are not needed after all.

Sure we all love the top end conversions, with all the shiny bling, the extra rooms, the deep pile carpet with floor heating and marble everything. And if you can comfortably drop a half mil into it why not? Or if you are the old time construction expert do it yourself. For us mere mortals though it's often a good idea to set our sights a little lower.

I'm a guru of V8 engine conversions for small British cars and I constantly encourage people to keep their conversions simple. I've been a pioneer in that field and obviously do not practice what I preach, but over the decades I've gradually begun to realize that it is often better to enjoy the use of something that is less than ideal, than it is to strive to create that ideal and not get to enjoy it. I think that principle applies even more in bus conversions than it does there.

Jim